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Traditional Archers | Bowhunters
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Poll Results
 
 Yea or Nay
 Yea 15 46%
 Nay 17 53%
Total votes: 32. This poll has been closed.


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ziplomacy

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Reply with quote  #1 
Yea if you follow the Ashby studies, partially or wholly. 

Nay if you do not follow the Ashby studies.

Your username will NOT show up on poll results, please answer if you can!

So I haven't really heard a lot about the Ashby studies while on this site and I have seen only a few members mention it. Here are the 12 factors for arrow penetration according to Ashby. (with a short summary by me)

1. Structural Integrity - strong components
2. Arrow Flight - bare shaft tuning
3. Arrows weight front of center (FOC) - 20% or greater
4. Mechanical Advantage - 3/1 broadheads preferred
5. Shaft Diameter - thin arrows 
6. Arrow Mass - higher mass arrows 
7. Blade Edge Finish - honed and stropped 
8. Shaft Profile - tapered shaft 
9. Broadhead/Arrow Silhouette - smooth transitions from tip to fletchings
10. Edge Bevel - single bevel 
11. Tip design - tanto tip
12. Total Arrow Weight Above 650 gr. - the bone-breaking threshold 


The Ashby Bowhunting Foundation continues the research of Dr. Ed Ashby, here is the link to their home page: 
https://www.ashbybowhunting.org/ashby-reports

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Pronghorn Takedown #42@28"
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Sam

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Reply with quote  #2 
I have read them with great interest and was able to discuss them with him a little. I am not a tinkerer, so I did not find it easy or fun to develop FOC rigs. Since I tend to hunt only white tailed deer, I have found that a well tuned "standard" weight arrow is more than enough to take a deer. If I were pursuing heavier and tougher game, I probably would seek greater FOC arrows.
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Sam McMichael

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Hill Cheetah (2, one 55# and one 40#)
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NM Shelton (2, both 53#)
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Archery Traditions Bamboo Longhunter (3, one 56#, one 60# and one 78#)

Dodger

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Reply with quote  #3 
I build my arrows based on most of Dr. Ashby's principles. However, I am also mindful about what Howard Hill had to say about keeping pile weight around 150 grains in Hunting The Hard Way.

Since I use aluminium alloy and wood shafts I have not been able to make a very strong or thin arrow. Other than these two points, I have ticked the other points listed by you, with some exceptions like a tapered shaft (to be addressed) and 20% and greater FOC with wood arrows. 

I have often thought about using a collar on my alloy shafts but haven't got around to it. I wonder if anyone has done this.

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Orion

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Reply with quote  #4 
I try to read everything Ashby has written and follow a lot of it.  Of course, many of the 12 points you list above were common knowledge/practice for quite some time beforee Ashby's studies.  Ashby's main contributions have to do with developing and measuring the effects of greater FOC arrow construction, testing various broadhead materials and configurations, and examining arrow weight (and FOC) as it relates to penetration.  
Horsehide

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Reply with quote  #5 

The concept has some value if you are after heavy or dangerous game. My goals these days are to put a nice fat doe or a boar in the freezer.

I had no issue punching through Texas-sized withetails with 160gr Ribteks on cedar shafts for a total weight of 590gr out of a 60# ASL. 

Blood trail was however less than satisfactory, even with a double lung punch. 

The plan was to switch to a wider head to remedy this issue, but Abowyers is sold out and the 200gr ACE might be a little soft.

Now looking at the 190gr 3 blade VPAs. 


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Tom M

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Reply with quote  #6 
#12, Most guys these days can’t or won’t shoot a bow heavy enough to make a 650 grain arrow that effective. Sure momentum helps a heavy arrow but you still need enough power to create that momentum.
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longcruise

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Reply with quote  #7 
I'm a "yay".  Ive read all of his reports and re-read most for clarity.  I employ his suggestions about as well as possible with POC shafts.  The biggest animal I hunt is elk and my hunting bow propels my 598 grain arrows at 145 fps.
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timking

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Reply with quote  #8 

I subscribe to 1,2,5,6 & 9..

so I guess I would be a nay since I’m less than half

I believe Dr. Ashby’s work is invaluable, unfortunately I think it has been twisted to fit modern day marketing. 

I think there is a bit of fear mongering, especially to new people getting into the sport that you have to over prepare for the worst... I shoot a lot of arrows at critters and I’ve experienced a lot of the worst… And I have to say if crap is gonna go bad it’s gonna go bad...
I think a lot of the 7 that I don’t ascribe to as 'have to’s’ really just boils down to personal preference.

The only one that I really I have issue with is the 650 gr bone breaking threshold....it concerns me anytime I see someone sacrifice accuracy( which is often the case with poor trajectory) to make 650 grains ( not 645!) or a certain FOC. 

Again, as a fella that himself markets in the outdoor industry, I get nauseated at what #”*• is getting shoveled to us these days...
Off my soapbox....almost...

Sorry Zip for the rabbit trail, my comments are more about the marketing that is going on with bowhunting right now than about your excellent question. You also don't have to look far in these threads to see where I have had  an almost opposing opinion than I have now...Its not the arrow weight or FOC 'rules'  that bothers me, its when I see guys spend money that they think they have to be successful, and you can follow the money, and it usually ends at some 'expert'.
Its appalling, and trad archery should be above it.


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62" #55 Fox High Sierra 
62" #58 Black Widow MA
64" #56 A&H ACS 
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fdp

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Reply with quote  #9 
Actually in Ashby's writings he states that the increased arrow weight up to and including the 650grs. to make any bow more effective.
ziplomacy

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Reply with quote  #10 
I appreciate all the participation and comments! Keep the answers coming!  I think If there was one right answer we would have found it in the thousands of years archery has been around. 
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Steve Graf

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Reply with quote  #11 
For me, the most important part of Ashby's work was his broadhead research.  He confirmed what Hill preached about the broadhead length to width ratio of 3:1, and he added the tanto tip (common sense) and the single bevel cutting edge.

I have killed too many deer to count.  But the last 20 or 30 have been with the single bevel edge and the wound it leaves sure is impressive.  In my experience a 2 beveled blade leaves a clean slit in the carcass.  A single bevel will leave a 3 or 4 inch diameter bruise similar to a gunshot.  The downside is wasted meat.

I am no great archer or hunter and I would get way too old sitting here telling all my horror stories of things gone bad.  Unfortunately, switching to the single bevel edge hasn't improved my aptitude for a good shot.  That said, since I started using single bevel broadheads,  I haven't had a deer go more than a 100 yards (most fall within sight) even after one of my patented crappy shots.

And all that said, there is no substitute for accuracy.  An arrow through both lungs (with any broadhead) leads to the fastest recovery.  We shouldn't allow ourselves to slack off on accuracy, or take a shot longer than we should, because we think our arrow will take up the slack.  It never does.
Sparkitoff

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Reply with quote  #12 
I like an appreciate any well conducted research. With that said, this 12 step script seems to work well when all 12 are adhered to. If you are skipping one for some reason, you might as well not worried about any of it. I am a proponent of using what works. There are a lot of hunters out there that have something that works and there is no reason someone cannot mimic their formula and get the same results. My background is of a retired PH from RSA and a Texas exotic ranch owner. Over the past three decades I had hundreds of archery hunters shoot all kinds of animals. After a while you get a feeling for what is probably inefficient and what is probably effective. The biggest contributor to "probably" is the right shot placement at a reasonable range (no matter what the projectile). Before I ever knew of this study, I kept on hand some items that seemed to work more often than not. When I client had poor equipment performance I would offer these items and often "fix" the problem. The items mostly consisted of certain arrows with feathers and certain broadheads. Just a few months ago I was asked to guide a lady on a TX sheep hunt. Her well-meaning husband listened to the archery shop and got her the nicest equipment. Her goal to to get a TX Slam (4 kinds of sheep). After 2 misses and then using a ram for a pin-cushion I had enough. I turned the bow down to where she could handle it (36#). We re-sighted her with my arrows and BH's. I made her shoot 3, rest 5 minutes. We killed the afternoon but she could hit accurately out to a certain range. The next 3 sheep were pass through shots, 1 lethal shot each. My point is, I have no idea how many of the 12 Ashby points I checked off. I just know that these arrows, BH's the feathers instead of vanes - always result in better arrow flight and penetration as they did in this case too. Of course, the bow has to be able to launch them so they are accurate. That's about as complicated as I get. I don't get any joy from constant tinkering and surely someone else has a foundation for me to start with. My personal hunting is traditional all the way. I cannot recite what arrow weight I have even though I have a scale and have weighed them for reference.  I tried two or three BHs and found one that flies good and is razor sharp. I know I have FOC but I don't know the percentage. I personally don't care. They zip through the things I am shooting with my bow with consistency. I do know if I wanted to increase my total arrow weight I would have to figure out a bunch of other aspects to get them tuned again. Tuning once was enough for me.  Again I read and appreciate the research but for my personal application it is only relevant to some extent. Besides, if an arrow goes through ... any more energy than necessary to make the exit hole, whatever is not applied to the animal anyway.
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Reply with quote  #13 
Nay here, the last time I looked at his research was about ten years ago. It did spawn a number of new HEAVY heads with prices to match, so it did have a big impact on broadhead design, and construction . I thought it interesting because when I dropped in bow weight from 80 - 90 lbs to 69# I enjoyed it more, shot better, and the bow would shoot the same weight arrow further than Brand X and both were ASL. The latter was one I built. I was also convinced an arrow weight of  8 - 10 x the bow weight was about ideal for wood or aluminum arrows without some type of weight, footing, or heavy heads. Today, the average weight being shot is between 45 and 50 lbs, and arrow weights of 650 grains will severely affect arrow speed and trajectory. Today, my bow weights range between 50 - 65 lbs with arrows weights of 500 - 625 gr.  I would agree with recommendation #1, 2, 4, 7 and 8.  If I were to shoot graphite I could improve on the 15 - 18% FOC.  I believe when Dr Ashby wrote his findings, he was shooting  80 lbs or more and enjoyed hunting dangerous game.
Old3Toe

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Reply with quote  #14 

I got mixed thoughts on Ashby and foc, but on balance, I’m for it. So I’m a ‘yea’ I suppose. 

Where I’ve landed for myself is that with wood shafting, there is a shot ceiling to the foc one can achieve while maintaining a sane gpp of arrow weight and trajectory. Nevertheless, as i push that envelope and maximize foc and gpp with a cedar shaft, arrow flight/trajectory/tuning (and I suspect ‘forgiveness’ of shootability) are seemingly also maximized. 

 

 


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CTDolan

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Reply with quote  #15 
Dr. Ashby conducted thorough, objective research on more game animals than any of us will ever shoot, much less see shot. Over 1,900 head of game, many of them rather large, tough game animals (think buffalo). Therefore, his conclusions are, in my opinion, incontrovertible. Nobody here has the breadth of experience, nor meticulous research backing, to counter his claims. The question is, to what extent does it need to be applied to be a successful hunter this autumn? Are you heading to the deer stand shooting a 650 grain arrow out of a 60# bow? Given a decent shot, chances are you'll be fine. Are you shooting a 40# draw bow (maybe only drawing 35# because of your draw length)? Well, you'd best heed Dr. Ashby's recommendations if you don't want to be eating tag soup on a cold winter night.
Steve Graf

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Reply with quote  #16 
I think you are spot on when you observe that the Ashby results are incontrovertible.  You are spot on again when you say that he has more experience than the rest of us will likely ever have.

That said, if your broadhead is sharp, you can push it through the rib cage of a deer with 1 (or 2) fingers.  A well placed wood arrow shot from a 35 or 40 pound bow from 15 yards will pass through a deer every time.  Slowing an arrow down 10 to 20 (or even 30) fps to achieve a high weight and FOC from a lower weight bow can ruin the archers chance of hitting a deer, if it moves at all.

I think his broadhead research can benefit us all.  But the benefit of his high FOC research is really limited to game larger than deer. JMO

I hope that his new institution will continue their research and actually do a study on the results of using a high FOC heavy arrow from light bows as compared to "normal" weight arrows.  It would be a hard study to collect data for and would likely take a long time, but it would be interesting to see how real life success rates would be affected for deer hunting.  It is never safe to guess and I'm sure I have been wrong more than I have been right, but based on my experience those that shoot lighter arrows at deer will be more successful (especially if they use an ashby type broadhead).
timking

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Reply with quote  #17 
Lets just hope that the "new institution” remains unbiased, difficult to do if manufacturers reps are in influential positions!
I won’t resume my rant 😇

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62" #58 Black Widow MA
64" #56 A&H ACS 
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30coupe

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Reply with quote  #18 
Ashby had done research with light poundage bows. Tradgang has all of his papers I believe, and in the later ones he experimented with low poundage bows with heavy arrows. It has been some time since I read it, so I can't give exact numbers but the bow was at or below 45# as near as I can remember. 

It's best to remember that Ashby's 12 points are in order of importance. The 650 grain number is the heavy bone breaking threshold. Notice it is way down the list of importance. Other factors are more important for penetration of less dense tissue, aka deer ribs and hog shields. 

Reading his comments about each factor would be a good idea. I can't shoot heavy poundage anymore, so I rely on most of Ashby's factors to make up for it, especially the top three.

So I'm a yeah.

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