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Tom M

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Reply with quote  #1 
I am looking for info about this style of shaft. Might have some time between projects to try and make some but no clue how to start. Any help appreciated, thanks, TomM
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Selden Slider

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Reply with quote  #2 
I noticed this topic yesterday but was waiting for input from others.  I've never heard of "rattail tapered" shafts.  I'm familiar with tapered shafts but the rattail has me stumped.  If you or someone else can explain it'd be appreciated.  Frank
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chuckc

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Reply with quote  #3 
Gonna presume you are using another name for full taper shafts, tapered from one end to the other, as opposed to only the trailing ten inches or so ?
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ChuckC

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Old Sailor

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Reply with quote  #4 
There are rear tapered, full tapered, breast tapered, and barrel tapered but I have never heard of rat tail.
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aromakr

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Reply with quote  #5 
ChuckC:

Is correct, rattailed is just another way describe a shaft that is full length tapered. It is probably the least effective of all the different tapers. If you have a copy of "Target Archery" By Dr. Robert Elmer, he explains the various tapers and their effectiveness.

Bob

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chuckc

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Reply with quote  #6 
Bob.... Don't have that one. What does he mean by "effective", and by that... least effective ? I don't generally taper my arrows, but i have some old Acme cedars which are full length tapered. Can i blame them for my horrible shooting ?
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ChuckC

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aromakr

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Reply with quote  #7 
Chuck, What Dr. Elmer did was create a group of arrows all the same spine, weight and length but each having a different taper. He then shot these at a distance of 100 yards using the same sight setting, and measuring the difference in impact on the target. His theory being the faster an arrow begins spinning on its axis the less friction it will have in flight, it will maintain its velocity longer and will impact the target higher and that is the major value of tapering. Of all the tapers the "rattailed taper" came in dead last. The best taper was the "Breast taper" coming in second was the "Barrel Taper" it printed 24" lower than the breast taper. He didn't indicate how the others faired, and with that much difference in the top two I can understand why he stopped there.

Because of these findings in the last 25years of my arrow making I have only made "Breast tapers" both for my self and commercially, I believe in it that strongly.

Dr. Elmer was an outstanding target archer and researcher having written several books on the sport. His book "Target Archery" is one I refer to quite often, its an excellent read even though he states it "dedicated to the target archer" most of it will also be useful to the hunting archer.

Bob 

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Jack Skinner

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Reply with quote  #8 
Bob i feel like I know the other's but "breast" tappered?
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Jack Skinner

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Jim Wolffe

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Reply with quote  #9 
This explains different tapers pretty well.

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aromakr

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Reply with quote  #10 
Jack:
A breasted taper is very similar to a barrel taper, the difference being instead of the parallel section being in the middle of the arrow it is moved towards the nock end, so you have a longer taper on the point end, and the short taper at the nock end, also you have dissimilar diameters, i. e. in using a 23/64" the dia. is 5/16 at the nock and 11/32" at the point. I make my arrow tapers 8" on the nockend and 13" on the point end, but they can vary somewhat and still be efficient.

Elmer makes the statement in his book "I don't know of a race of men that live by the bow that use parallel arrow shafts, I believe it is a product of modern American technology "




Unfortunately Jim the description of a breasted taper is in correct. Just another case of some printing something without  thoroughly  researching it.

Bob

 

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Tom M

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Reply with quote  #11 
Seems I saw references to breasted shafts on a English Archery website. Those also intrigue me. Reason I thought about the rattail I was also thinking of footing the shafts with Purple Heart to add some FOC. You know, something different to try. Aluminum and carbon arrows are getting boring.
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Red Beard

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Reply with quote  #12 
I lucked out years ago and got a hell of a deal from Jim Curlee
Grabbed 6dz berated cedars and haven’t made a personal hunting arrow with anything else since
Nothing I’ve ever shot recovers from paradox quicker or flys better,,offset or helical fletched

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Selden Slider

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Reply with quote  #13 
Thanks for the explanation Bob and Chuck.  Frank
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chuckc

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Reply with quote  #14 
I believe....its a guess, that the reason men that "live by the bow" didn't tend to use parallel arrows is more because they used shoots and branches as starting msterials for arrows, almost 100% of which are naturally tapered. Pretty certain if they had machinery that turned trees into piles of symmetric shafts the Smiths would have grabbed them up.
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ChuckC

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Jack Skinner

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Reply with quote  #15 
Thanks Bob.

I realize most things in target archery can be used in hunting. But for this I am sceptical. As a barrel tappered shaft makes it way through tissue I see no way that drag cannot be increased and therefore affect penetration. How much or how little depends on multiple factors. But a shaft starting with small hole and then shaft getting larger would have to cause drag as tissue collapses and contracts.

But a full taper or as Chuck points out a shoot shaft starts large and decreases in size. Just seems that would lessen drag and increase penetration. Also shoot shafts can be used on a wide weight range of bows. They seem to recover well at least from self bows

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Jack Skinner

Self Bows, OE's; Heritage, Vixen, Misty Dawn, Heritage II x 2 "The Twins", North Star x 2 Crown Jewel and Cousin It, 7 Lakes SF Carolina Night, Miller Sage, Ramer, Schulz Grandpa, Sunset Hill, Shelton

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aromakr

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Reply with quote  #16 
Jack:
Lets look at specifics, You start with a 23/64 dia. shaft that's .362 thousands and taper for 13" to 11/32" dia. that's .343 thousands a difference of .017 thousands, if you have a micrometer set it at .017 and what that looks like. I would believe that an arrow spinning on its axis at impact is way more conducive to penetration than an increase of .017 or .0085 to a side, that may not be spinning on its axis, would reduce penetration. If I remember correctly a piece of generic copy paper measures about .005 or .006 thick. If your broadhead is slicing a hole a inch or more wide, you talking minuscule size differences. I will take an arrow spinning on its axis at impact anyday over an arrow that is not spinning on its axis. regardless of its diameter.

Of course you have to do what you feel will work best, I'm just trying to give some insight into tapered arrow shafts. And as I said I feel strongly enough about breasted shafts that I make no other type. And you really have to shoot one and see how quickly it over comes paradox to appreciate them.

Bob

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Red Beard

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Reply with quote  #17 
Jack

I’m spit balling and I’m sure Bob can give you a more educated answer
But if it’s a smaller hole on impact being 11/32 then midshaft goes to a larger 23/64,then tapers to 5/16 the hole made by shaft up the 23/64 diameter would stay there for the longest part of said shaft which would be 5/16
So technically less of a breasted shaft is 23/64 and it only gets to that size for a few inches then tapers to smaller size which would be less drag then a one length parallel shaft or a tapered shaft
But in my opinion at least in my almost 30yrs of hunting the hole made on impact by the Broadhead would null and void any drag from a shaft following it in and thru fur flesh or bone

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Jack Skinner

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Reply with quote  #18 
Ok I get that .017 just should not make that much of a difference. Did I miss something on the spinning on its axis, do I need to read the book you speak of. Because my arrows are always spinning, helical fletch. My broad head also at impact and beyond single bevel.

But I am interested in breasted shafts for quick recovery, best I have found so far are footed shafts.

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Jack Skinner

Self Bows, OE's; Heritage, Vixen, Misty Dawn, Heritage II x 2 "The Twins", North Star x 2 Crown Jewel and Cousin It, 7 Lakes SF Carolina Night, Miller Sage, Ramer, Schulz Grandpa, Sunset Hill, Shelton

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Tom M

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Reply with quote  #19 
Before I get involved in making any tapered shafts is it worth the effort on a bow riser cut to center? I still want to try footing them to see if I can get some durability.
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I hunt public land.
aromakr

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Reply with quote  #20 
Sorry I missed the last two posts for so long. 

Jack: Yes it is worth using a tapered shaft "spinning on its axis" only means they recover from paradox faster, thus reducing friction and allowing the arrow to maintain its velocity longer. By removing weight from the ends of the shafts it recovers faster.

Tom M: It doesn't matter how the shelf is cut, the arrow still goes through paradox, the quicker it recovers the flatter it will shoot and the more energy it will retain at impact.

There are a lot of ways to increase the speed of overcoming paradox, tapering is one of them. The specie of wood selected is another way, soft woods recover faster than hardwoods. The quickest recovering woods are POC, Douglas Fir, Lodge Pole pine, Sitka Spruce. Its not just a coincidence that these woods have been used for arrow making for centuries. There are publications put out by the Forrest labs that list the modulus of elasticity of all species of wood  

Bob

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Tom M

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Reply with quote  #21 
Bob, thanks for your input. I am still interested in tapering and footing shafts. Using your above post and some ingenuity I hope to come up with some sort of jig for tapering the shafts on the belt sander. What I am trying to strive for are arrows that would be suitable for IFAA and WA field rounds. I know the closer in spine and weight the arrows are the better off I will be. I also noted your recommendations on tapers in regards to distance shooting as field archery requires up to 80 yard shots.
Soon as the holidays are over I plan on starting this project. I will post my progress good or bad.

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Sun City, Az. by way of San Diego, Ca. Bear TD's Wes Wallace Royal LB, ILF risers and various limbs, Vintage Works 1962 Kodiak reproduction made to my specs

I hunt public land.
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