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Bigmagic

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Reply with quote  #1 
I am hoping someone can help clear this up for me.

I have wrestled with the issue that any one of my bows has arrows that are properly spined for it. Most of my bows have a center cut shelf. A few of them are 1/4 inch cut shelves, and those are the ones I have the most difficulty making sure arrows are properly spined for. I don't understand why the 1/4 shelf bow is more finicky, but for me they are.

I was told that if I merely add a much heavier tip, that would solve the problem. So I replaced my 125grain tips with 175g and 200.

On the surface it seems like problem solved. I found that I can shoot an arrow that shoots well from any of my center cut bows equally as well from my 1/4 cut bows. I went even further by shooting one arrow from any of my bows 55# to 70# with the same results. The same arrow, 1/4 inch cut bows and center cut at different draw weights.

Clearly because of spine I would not want to shoot an arrow that is spined for my wife's 35# Martin Stick Bow from my 70. I understand that.

Some would say that if it works and it isn't a problem, why worry about it. While I don't know the physics behind all of this, and I don't know if I should even worry about it, my question is am I giving up anything by shooting an arrow that shoots well from say, my 60 or 70# bows from my 55# 1/4 shelf cut bow even if the arrow shaft is not the ideally spined for that bow?
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Reply with quote  #2 

A lot of ground to cover here...I assume that we are talking carbon? How did you determine length? Are you using the same length arrow with your both of your examples? When you talk “1/4 cut” , do you mean 1/4” SHY of being center cut, such as an ASL?

First, we all have a different opinion of what “shooting well” would be, but to me a properly spined and tuned arrow is not debatable. I for one would not think the same arrow could possible work for both bows....certainly not with just 25gr tip change


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timking

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Reply with quote  #3 
As reference, I am mostly shooting #55-#58 recurves (cut past center)these days, and even #3 difference in the identical style/brand bow calls for( maybe not requires) a 3/8 difference in length to shoot the same tip weight. I am a big believer in bareshaft, and it’s gotta be there for me before I move to fletching it.
I am shooting 350s with a 200 gr point, 50 gr insert/outsert. 

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Draven

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Reply with quote  #4 
That 
Quote:
Originally Posted by timking
 I am a big believer in bareshaft, and it’s gotta be there for me before I move to fletching it.


That's the tipping point. Feathers will cover a LOT of the tuning issues. If your execution is good, all the "not perfect tuned" arrows will go where you want if you are keeping it in the 20 yards range. The bareshaft tuning is helping you with less than optimal execution.

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Clydebow

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Reply with quote  #5 
"First, we all have a different opinion of what “shooting well” would be"  That's what I was formulating in my mind to say as I was reading your post, but Tim beat me to it.  
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Reply with quote  #6 
I believe you mean "cut to center shelves."  Big difference between it and "center cut."  Your other bows are 1/4" past center or before?  Big difference there too.  What I can tell you right now is that every 1/16" requires a 5# adjustment either minus for before or plus for past.  So your 1/4" is good for 20# in one direction or the other.  Add another 5# for FF strings.  Draw length over 28", 5#/inch  Under 28" -5#/inch.  Arrow length +5#/inch over 28" or -5#/inch under 28".  This should get you right there.  Frank
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Bigmagic

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Reply with quote  #7 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Slider
I believe you mean "cut to center shelves."  Big difference between it and "center cut."  Your other bows are 1/4" past center or before?  Big difference there too.  What I can tell you right now is that every 1/16" requires a 5# adjustment either minus for before or plus for past.  So your 1/4" is good for 20# in one direction or the other.  Add another 5# for FF strings.  Draw length over 28", 5#/inch  Under 28" -5#/inch.  Arrow length +5#/inch over 28" or -5#/inch under 28".  This should get you right there.  Frank


Yes, cut to center. I thought center cut is the same thing. The other bows have a shelf like my Howard Hill Wesley Special. It is 1/4 inch from the side of the bow. I don't know nomenclature too well.

When I mean shooting well, I mean shooting at a one inch key ring at about 15 yards and hitting the center of the ring. I found it difficult to hit the ring with any of my bows that are 1/4 cut from the side until I put a heavy tip on them. Then they are spot on as long as I am shooting well.

""I for one would not think the same arrow could possible work for both bows....certainly not with just 25gr tip change""

I have been shooting arrows like that for a couple years and it works perfectly. Between the heavy tips and feathers, they fly fine no matter what bow I shoot the from. I wondered if this would ruffle a few feathers but that was not my intent. If in doubt, I would invite anyone to try it for themselves. I am just curious from those who also do this have found any down-side to it.


chuckc

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Reply with quote  #8 
I have heard two terms thrown around..center cut, which means cut to the center of the limbs, and center shot, which is cut beyond center, allowing the arrow to be centered on the limbs.

Then there is something cut before center, or shy of it, like many longbows.

Each of these generally asks for different arrow spines to be perfect.

As Tim stated...good, or perfect flight is likely different  for me and you, in part because of experience and what we see of that arrow in flight.

All kinds of things can change the arrow flight, or affect "needs" from one bow to the next.

Take one arrow and cut off those feathers.  You don't even have to be neat about it.  Now, back up and shoot it.  Baby steps here.  Just shoot it at a hill or large target from 25ish yards and watch it fly, or have a friend watch over your shoulder.

If, in flight, the arrow points towards the bow ( you will see what i mean when you do it), it is weak, if away from the bow, it is stiff.  If it points right at the target the whole way, start smiling.

Once they look good, start shooting at a target to try to perfect them.  They can fly great but still go a bit left or right of your target.  Here is where you tweak that.  Shooting a bare shaft with fletched shafts is often done at this point to see that they are hitting relatively the same.

At least....that is what i do. 

Lots of ways to do this.  Pick one, or two and go for it.

As stated above, with big feathers, almost any shaft can fly kinda decent.

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Reply with quote  #9 



Center punching a 1-inch diameter target at 15 yards? Damn!
timking

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Reply with quote  #10 

First you’re certainly not ruffling feathers, we’re all on the same kind of path of figuring things out together

for me, your question about any downside to big feathers and heavy points… IF, and I am just assuming for arguments sake, the arrow is not tuned well but still winds up where you want it to, there can be a lot of wasted energy correcting itself. That may not matter much to a lot of folks. To me every fps that I am loosing by lack of efficiency means that I am basically shooting a __ # lighter bow..., but still pulling the same weight 
I do know when it comes to penetration, the biggest factor for me is that the nock is in exact alignment with the broadhead at impact


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fdp

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Reply with quote  #11 
 This has become a REALLY deep subject over the past few years and it has gotten to the point that it has become almost impossible to explain or understand due to all of the terms used, many of which are interpreted to mean different things. Such as the term that you used " 1/4 shelf bow", 
I don't even know what that is.

As mentioned above, a bow that is "cut to to center" has the sight window cut out in such a way that the inside of the sight window is in line with the center of the limbs.

Then there is "center shot" which theoretically means that the sight window is cut far enough past center to allow an arrow to be centered in the limb. The problem with that is that a bow is only "center shot" for a particular diameter of arrow, unless the bow is cut far enough past center to allow the horizontal movement of the arrow enough to bring the arrow to center.

Then there are bows such as Black Widow for instance (and yes I am aware that they are not the only ones that do this) that actually build bows 
that are cut 3/16" past center. 

What does all this mean? Well a whole lot (maybe) and nothing (maybe). And here's why. Unless you shoot your bows with a bare sight window the the centershot measurement of how the bowyer built the bow is meaningless. The only relevant measurement for centershot is the way that you have the bow set up to shoot. I've seen lots and lots of bows that were built centershot, or past center that have so much stuff glued to the side plate that they are being shot 1/8" before center. And that's ok, maybe. If you are a person that tunes using side plate thickness.

Every 1/16" that a bow is set up before center decreases the spine requirement of the bow by about 1 spine group. Every 1/16" that a bow is set up past center increases the spine requirement about 1 spine group. And it doesn't matter what kind of shaft material you are talking about.

One of the chief reasons that there are so many threads related to tuning arrows on ANY archery forum is the fact that folks haven't yet learned what spine is, or how to manipulate it.  Folks start with arrows that are too stiff, and then have to add in some cases excessive amounts of weight to get the arrow to shoot. You don't have to do that.

Understand what spine is and forget about whether you are talking about carbon, wood, or aluminum. Static spine is static spine, and if you measure it the same way on a carbon arrow as you do on a wooden arrow, then you have arrows that will react dynamically very similarly when shot from the same bow as long as they are the same diameter.

Folks many times infer that carbon arrows can be tuned to a wider range of draw weights than other materials. This came about because in the beginning many carbon arrow manufacturer's labeled their arrows as for instance 30/50 meaning that they can be shot from bows ranging in draw weight from 30-50lbs.. Which they can. But, so can wooden arrows. 


Here is an example. Waaaaaay back in the '60's AMO established the standards for arrow deflection for a given draw weight. And, the grouped them in alphabetical groups from A-K with A being the lightest draw weight, and K being the stiffest draw weight. The C group is the group that would be reflective of the carbon arrow example listed above. The C group has a static deflection of between .850 to.750. And, this spine range can be used in bows that range in draw weight between 30 and 50 lbs. depending on arrow length. Why? Because arrow length also affects dynamic spine. Every inch under 28" decreases the static spine requirement  by about 5lbs., and every inch over 28" increases the static spine requirement by about 5lbs..  Just like the carbons. And aluminum shaft material has EXACTLY the same attributes as wood and carbon.

The affect of tip weight on dynamic spine is a little more difficult to quantify. But suffice to say that increasing tip weight decreases the dynamic spine reaction (makes the arrow appear softer), and decreasing tip weight increases the dynamic spine reaction (makes the arrow appear stiffer). How much the addition of a particular amount of tip weight affects the spine reaction is in my experience the hardest of all the details to quantify.

Personally, I intentionally start with an arrow that I suspect will be  a little weak/soft for the bow (and I start with a bare sight window so that I have the bow set up in the configuration that will allow it to use the maximum spine it is capable of) and then I build out the side plate a little at a time until I get the arrow tuned. All my arrows are the same length, and all my field points and broadheads are the same weight.

Then you have the whole bareshaft versus fletched shaft tuning and that is another interesting ball of wax. 
 
What you decide to do there is all on you. You have to decide if you have the time or the desire to invest in that process. Personally, I see it as a complete waste of time for mot people and most uses. I have never seen any data that suggests that an arrow that was bareshaft tuned carries any more energy or speed down range than an arrow that was tuned for clean flight using any other method as long as both arrows have the same size feathers.




Draven

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Reply with quote  #12 
Good comments Frank.
My question is when the tip becomes too heavy (in the arithmetics of the spine)? I've seen just here the 600gr broadheads.
I always know the weight of the entire arrow I want to get at the end and the spine and tip weight are the 2 elements I use in building it way before bareshafting.

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chuckc

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Reply with quote  #13 
Adding a bit more.  Understand...an arrows spine is what it is.   It doesn't normally change.  What you are changing are the conditions under which that shaft is operating.   Shortening the shaft doesn't change the spine, only the conditions that impact that arrow.  Same with tip weight, brace height, bow efficiency, degree of center cut, and likely more.  
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Reply with quote  #14 
One easy thing to do with the bows that are 1/4" outside of center, Order a set of Surewoods cut to length and tapered, get a basic fletcher (many easy to follow directions online) and make yourself some wood arrows for those bows. Bareshafting with wood arrows does not work so good, because the shaft weight per inch is not like a carbon. It works with carbons because much of the total weight is in the point and insert and the rest of the arrow follows along like a skinny weather vane. Cedars and Doug firs like Surewoods work in longbows because of two reasons. Longbows like pushing heavy arrows, but they like an arrow that has some slower recovery bend in it to get the arrow around the riser. while a carbon arrow needs very precise draw and tuning to be consistent from shot to shot, a Surewood will not penalize the shooter as much for a accidental shorter draw or a soft release. let the boys at Surewood help with spine selection. My go to bows are both 3/8" outside of center, they will shoot a ten pound span in wood arrow spine with no issues, but they will not shoot carbons at all.  Some folks like to kid themselves into believing that they never have a soft shot. When shooting game those soft shots come into play more than most think. A carbon shot with an outside of center bow can be front loaded until it flies at full draw, but is liable to kick your butt with a soft shot when shooting down out of tree stand or dunking down low and flat when shooting to get under a branch. Like Dick Robertson said to me, "longbows like to have the arrow fly around something, that's why wood arrows work." R&Ds and ASLs not cut to center all love wood arrows.
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Reply with quote  #15 
Draven that's a dang good question and is one part of the spine mystery I have not been able to figure out. And add to the mix the FOC and EFOC rage and the question gets even more confusing..

I agree Chuck. We are not changing the static spine when we make any changes. We are simply manipulating or changing the way the arrow behaves dynamically.
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Reply with quote  #16 
I know my answer for that question: for a conventional ILF limb #38 on fingers an arrow above 600gr becomes hard to bareshaft and execution is paramount. But I would like to know your experience as hunters. When the spine vs tip becomes a pain and very little gain?
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chuckc

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Reply with quote  #17 
Draven, missed your note there.  600 gr broadheads ?   Stand alone  or  counting inserts etc ?  Which are those ?
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Draven

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Reply with quote  #18 

I think it was a topic here about expensive broadheads and the maker was offering a 600gr broadhead  - stand alone
PS Bishop archery broadheads -600gr. Topic here with pulling my leg in title

PPS imagine a 340 GT with 600gr broadhead shot from a #35 bow. Is this madness or ultrafoc arrow everybody should use? Funny, 3R calculator gets the perfect match for 30” arrow but ... it has a lot of common sense in the last parameters





9BC0F378-E6F2-4C8E-98DE-35AA8630A9A1.png 



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Draven

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Reply with quote  #19 
But I derailed the topic way too much. My bad. Back to the initial question I think we are forgetting a parameter (not only the past or before centre cut bows) :the execution. You can shoot slightly different each bow and get a good flight when using same arrow - shorter DL for longbow vs recurve for example or due to draw weight. Or snap shooting vs holding and releasing - I know I can get around 6-7 fps more when snap-shooting which can alter the arrow dynamics. One thing is what you think you draw and another thing is what you really hold on fingers. It is not the number on the bow who’s saying “that arrow is not tuned”.

I would verify first how much is the DL with the #70 vs #55. The story might not be on the physics side but physical side.

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Reply with quote  #20 
I'm relatively new to traditional archery. I've read and watched nearly a hundred pieces on getting the right arrows for your bow. Taking everything in consideration, I went to the pro-shop with a range on a slow Monday. I talked the tech into accommodating me pretty much all day by changing lengths, tips and inserts on different shafts. I used bare shafts and then he fletched them too. 

One bow has a slight R/D and 45# at my DL.  After about 11 combinations, I got to where a 30" 8.9 GPI (500 spine) 10.5 grain insert and 145 grain tip, 4" feathers and 10.5 gr nock flew the same bare and fletched, flew straight and grouped good. Honestly, I have no idea what the numbers are as far as some calculation for dynamic spine, etc. I just know they work consistently … and they work pretty darn good. I spent about 2.5 hours on deciding arrows for this bow.  BTW it is cut a little short of center so the edge of my arrow shaft sits about 1/4" from the exact center of the limbs.

The next bow is a selfbow of hickory and bamboo that shows 41# at my DL. This bow is not "cut" at all, no shelf cut in. Instead, it has a little ledge that is added (it could have just as easily been a shoot-off-the-knuckles bow). This puts the edge of the arrow shaft about 13/16th from the center of the limbs.  This one was tricky and took a long time. About 4-hours of messing around to get something acceptable. I ended up with a 29" 7.6 GPI arrow with a 100 grain insert and a 150 grain tip, 3.5" feathers and 12 grain nock and (600) shaft. The arrow feels very front heavy.  It works. This combo eliminated any left impact that was hard to overcome. It centers, in other words not too far right. The impact is clean with straight flight and impact. I actually tried tip weights up to 300 grains with inserts from 12-110 grains. Lengths from 28 - 30.5. Feathers from 3-5.5". 500 spines and 600 spines.  Different GPI shafts within those spines. About 30 combos to land where I am at. 

The shop worked with me nicely. They eventually charged me for whatever could not be "un-done". They were pulling inserts, nocks, feathers and tips. Charged me for anything that could not be undone due to damage, stuck or was a keeper. They were nice enough to take back some cut shafts that didn't work out. Altogether, cost me $177 to walk out with 6 fully assembled arrows for one bow and 2 for the other. They created a customer log for me and recorded everything so that they can reproduce them for me at a later time.  Since then I have replaced 2 arrows that ended up broken and the replacements are perfect because they are exactly the combo that works. 

I have been a little long-winded and slightly off topic here. Taking this back to the original post.... I don't know a lot about the physics of the arrow either. I tried increasing tip weight as the OP mentioned. I also tried arrows for one bow out of another with varying effects. If you understand the fine points of tuning and can figure out exactly where to go from a baseline that is great. If you experiment is some systematic way like I did you can figure out what works and (as far as I am concerned) not worry about it. I am sure someone can criticize my arrows or explain why they are all wrong. Ok, but they work for me. I think you figured it out too. 
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Reply with quote  #21 
Wow,  you guys are good, no...great bow shooters to tell such a difference.  My hat's off to you.  Seriously.  To shoot good enough form to see these differences in arrow spines and point weights, etc.

I can shoot 10# spine variation of my woodies....(out of my 53-55# ASL) cut to 26 1/2 bop blunts or 27 1/4 bop broadheads I shoot 65-69# cedars w/ 125 gr. heads and 70-74# spine w/ 150 gr. heads but I can mix these combos around and still shoot the arrows on the line.   My release and bow arm cause more fluxuations in the arrow flight than anything else.  If going through all those efforts is what makes archery enjoyable to you, go do it.  For my sake,  keeping it simple, just relaxing and shooting fluid and casual without too much technical thought gives me the best arrow flight and arrows flying the line to the target.  If I get wobbly arrow flight, and start trying to tinker around, my form suffers and becomes more static and the result is more stress and worse form ad nauseum.   My fix for bad arrow flight is just relaxing, smiling, exhaling a nice soft breath as I begin the draw and just letting the shot flow as fluidly as possible.

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Draven

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Reply with quote  #22 
Nate, you know where you see the difference? When you shoot using an aiming system like "pick a point". When you shoot using a more intuitive aiming system your brain will compensate. Tim is shooting fixed crawl for example. He needs his arrows to be tuned for the crawl and when his tip is "there" the arrow must be "there" once he shot it. When I shoot "pic a point" same thing.
Funny part, when I found the perfect combo bow-arrow that was giving me one single aiming point on a target and the arrows were going in a 6" circle no matter the distance between 5m to 30m my bareshafts were everywhere but not hitting with the fletched arrows.
PS We can split in thousands an arrow and point and tuning, but unless it is not said for what you are using it in details, there is a leeway like for everything in life.

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chuckc

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Reply with quote  #23 
Aw Nate....your arrows and my arrows are related.  They don't act that differently from one another.  
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Reply with quote  #24 
Wow! There's a lot of great knowledge here.. I learned more here than from all the books purchased over the past 40 years.. Thanks to you all..
I must admit I'm still stuck on Arrow Hunter's comment regarding Big Magic sticking a one inch ring at 15 yds.. I don't know what you guys think, but to me THAT'S impressive.. I can't recall doing that with anything other than a compound equipped with sights and release.. Uhh, not that I would ever own a compound.. Oh no..

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Reply with quote  #25 
I’m with Nate, my practice bucket contained(before this move-now it’s empty) a 15# spine variance and 60-75 grain variance. All shot where I wanted them to go out of 30-40# ASL and center cut bows. Be they wood, aluminum or fiberglass all went to the spot. 475-545 grains with 190-235 grain points.

If I have to memorize my arrows that much to consciously think about how much this one weighs or that one spines I would go crazy and take all the enjoyment out shooting.


If that’s what floats your boat go for it, but I’ll guarantee you if I make the arrows and hand them to you randomly you won’t be able to tell the difference.

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