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Draven

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Reply with quote  #126 
A short google search will tell you what Freud wanted to say, not what some Coaches think he wanted to say. 
Freud delineated the mind in the distinct levels, each with their own roles and functions :
 
  • The preconscious consists of anything that could potentially be brought into the conscious mind.
  • The conscious mind contains all of the thoughts, memories, feelings, and wishes of which we are aware at any given moment. This is the aspect of our mental processing that we can think and talk about rationally. This also includes our memory, which is not always part of consciousness but can be retrieved easily and brought into awareness.
  • The unconscious mind is a reservoir of feelings, thoughts, urges, and memories that are outside of our conscious awareness. The unconscious contains contents that are unacceptable or unpleasant, such as feelings of pain, anxiety, or conflict.
If you can show me where subconscious can be interchangeable with unconscious please do. I would suggest to read studies regarding the action and mind and what triggers the action. In normal archery the trigger used is the visual cue - a visual cue that can be just "it looks right". Joel tries to repair TP archers with verbal cues. 
The funny part, what I said is what is said by Olympic Archer Coaches and most of them are making the liaison with Zen archery without actually discussing with a Sensei from that type of archery. At full draw you are taught in that type of archery that your feelings, your body and your bow and arrow should become one with your intention. It says to you exactly what Tom Clum's saying with subconscious release is saying: "nice words, sounds like an educated person. Wtf this means?"
Same thing the Zen archery is saying aka "send the arrow there" is said by OA coaches like KSL.  Hint, intention is not to "pull, pull, pull"

PS Back to the roots of this topic. Most of the archers here are hunters. In many cases they draw the bow and arrow when they can't be seen by the deer/bear/elk/moose etc and they deliberately release the arrow when they know it is the right moment. Practice beats theory. 
Joel can help with this part of the mental training. 





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Gmr12508

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Reply with quote  #127 
"A short google search will tell you what Freud wanted to say, not what some Coaches think he wanted to say. 
Freud delineated the mind in the distinct levels, each with their own roles and functions :"

I guess you missed this earlier post by me. Not a coach, Just Harvard Medical School, but what do they know, right?

As for Subconscious V Unconscious, from Harvard Medical School: 

As for the term “subconscious,” Freud used it interchangeably with “unconscious” at the outset. The words are similarly close but not identical in German (subconscious is das Unterbewusste; unconscious is das Unbewusste). But he eventually stuck with the latter term to avoid confusion. He couldn’t have predicted that the confusion would still exist after more than 100 years of discussion.

As a general rule, then, in most of the professional literature where mental functioning is concerned (including not just psychoanalysis, but also psychiatry, psychology, and neuroscience, among others), writers—like Freud—tend to use the word “unconscious” rather than “subconscious.” Although the word “subconscious” continues to appear in the lay literature, it is rarely defined carefully and may or may not be synonymous with “unconscious.”

Some neuroscientists find the concept of an unconscious to be a problem, because the terminology implies that the unconscious is a place, a true anatomical location, as it were, in the brain. Freud, as a neurologist, did think in terms of neurobiology. But he didn’t have twenty-first century tools to help him analyze the structure, function and complex interactions among nerve cells, neural circuits, or brain regions.

 

"Joel tries to repair TP archers with verbal cues" - An oversimplification


"Sensei from that type of archery" - One thing I learned from the study of Koryu arts and not gendai arts is that they do not stress over the exact meaning of a word or really exactly how it is done. All they care about is that it works. Ask and Shihan why a joint locks works and they will not give you a detailed breakdown. 


"that your feelings, your body and your bow and arrow should become one with your intention" - Again an over simplification. Much more going on than that. Just like the "empty mind" misinterpretation of Mushin. The literal translation is "empty mind", but the reality is that you focus on nothing but are aware of everything. 

"Hint, intention is not to "pull, pull, pull" - That is not an intention in Joel's system." The theory behind the mantra is to find the weak area in your shot and to reinforce your mind to focus on this area with a verbal command. An example of this is “keep pulling”, but what if your not weak in this area. Well then you have to find where your weakness is at and then apply a mantra to get thru it."

 

I suggest you too talk to Joel instead of making assumptions on what he is saying. 

Draven

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Reply with quote  #128 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gmr12508

"Sensei from that type of archery" - One thing I learned from the study of Koryu arts and not gendai arts is that they do not stress over the exact meaning of a word or really exactly how it is done. All they care about is that it works. Ask and Shihan why a joint locks works and they will not give you a detailed breakdown. 



Again, different experience. The 7th Dan I've met knew when I asked specific questions. They don't share what they know very easy, it is another story. Or the fact that in general non-japanese Sensei need to have a good relation with their japanese counterparts for access to "knowledge". 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gmr12508
 "that your feelings, your body and your bow and arrow should become one with your intention" - Again an over simplification. Much more going on than that. Just like the "empty mind" misinterpretation of Mushin. The literal translation is "empty mind", but the reality is that you focus on nothing but are aware of everything. 


If you are aware of everything how can you say it is a surprise and blame unconscious on parts of execution? Unless you are the guardian of the unconscious / subconscious word just because is trendy. If I would place japanese concepts on execution at full draw there is not just Mushin , it is Fudoshin too - where all components (physical and mental) work together to accomplish the task. But we are way off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gmr12508
 "Hint, intention is not to "pull, pull, pull" - That is not an intention in Joel's system." The theory behind the mantra is to find the weak area in your shot and to reinforce your mind to focus on this area with a verbal command. An example of this is “keep pulling”, but what if your not weak in this area. Well then you have to find where your weakness is at and then apply a mantra to get thru it."


There is no weakness in a correct learnt shot sequence. He is teaching how to overcome a weakness due to the lack of understanding the technical part of the sequence. An archer has "split- attention" using this method: attention to the target and attention to pull. It is bad? Not really, if it brings someone back to the sport. But I believe this is not the end, it is a stage. 


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Gmr12508

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Reply with quote  #129 

"Again, different experience. The 7th Dan I've met knew when I asked specific questions. They don't share what they know very easy, it is another story. Or the fact that in general non-japanese Sensei need to have a good relation with their japanese counterparts"

The people I was speaking about were Japanese and one was the 22nd generation grand master. I have seen it over and over, people ask why and they just smile. Just do it and quit worrying about that which does not matter, that is what that smile says. They do share and openly, once they see that you are genuine. I was allowed to read "well, he translated it to me" the sacred scrolls. It is all about "shin" to them.

"If you are aware of everything how can you say it is a surprise and blame unconscious on parts of execution? Unless you are the guardian of the unconscious / subconscious word just because is trendy". 

First, I would say you do not understand the concept of mushin. Second, I never said I use Mushin in archery. That was in reply to you saying this "that your feelings, your body and your bow and arrow should become one with your intention" That last statement is an 
oversimplification and I used mushin as a analogy to show what I meant.

"There is no weakness in a correct learnt shot sequence. He is teaching how to overcome a weakness due to the lack of understanding the technical part of the sequence. An archer has "split- attention" using this method: attention to the target and attention to pull" 

No weakness, okay. Who is to say what is a "correct" shot sequence? Many bare bow archers do not use the KSL sequence and they do just fine, same for hunters. Many that use the KSL sequence also do not fair well, while others do. So according to you, those who do not fair as well, they have no "weakness"?   

Again speak to Joel, your assumptions are inaccurate.

Draven

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Reply with quote  #130 
You win man. Mushin is applied in archery, you just don't know. It is before you decide to take the shot. I just quoted your own words btw, glad to see how you switch things to follow your narative. 
You meant what you think you know, I meant what I think I know. Let's close it here, it is my experience vs yours.
Because it is done different by some it is not equal with "it is always like this". You understand the difference I hope. Tom Clum had the decency to say he prefers one way to another. A hunter sometimes will prefer to release knowing when he is doing it.

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Gmr12508

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Reply with quote  #131 

"You win man. Mushin is applied in archery, you just don't know" - Not about winning, maybe to you. You cannot "apply" Mushin, It is a state of mind that you have, at all times, you do not turn it on or off. Mushin is a part of budo, just like zanshin. Budo to most means "Martial Arts", which is the literal translation. Yet it means so much more. The Japanese would watch a person doing waza and say "Good Budo". many like you would take this literal, and think it means the technique of what they were doing. However, they did not mean good technique, but rather the state of mind showed by the practitioner. To the Japanese Koryu arts it is not about "How" you do it, but rather your approach to it. That is why your reference to Kyudo and mushin are so far off.

All I said was semantics over "surprise V Subconscious" to which you went off on several tangents, to which I replied. I can see life and archery from other peoples perspectives and unlike you I will not tell them what they are doing. I try to see it and understand it from their point of view without getting caught up over the semantics of terminology. Nothing more, nothing less. I have enjoyed this thread and I have learned from it too. Good night and enjoy.

 

Draven

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Reply with quote  #132 
It was interesting none the less to read how I try to force something while in same time you try to tell me how it is done in an art you never practiced or had insight or have an idea about the difference between examination and open discussions about what you really are doing and want to achieve with these so called "concepts". How you approach it is how you are doing it - simple and efficient or unsure and complicated. That's why that Sensei said "his Budo is strong". Enjoy your evening.
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