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chuckc

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Reply with quote  #1 
Many of you know this already. I am one of those that...know it / forget it / know it / forget it on a regular basis. Being its the end of winter here, i am done with building mama's new kitchen, and bored... i was tinkering. Trying new loads on a couple favorite bows.

In doing so...i threw some carbon shafts, brands X and Y, labeled .500 spine onto my spine testing apparatus. Particulars matter less here (shaft mfr, spine tester type) but brand X showed about 65#, while brand Y was nearly 5# heavier. Both labeled the same. Another shaft, labeled as 55-75, and not by deflection, measured 80#.

Once again...if you have the need to be picky in optimizing gear, you might look at every danged shaft. They just might be different. I have been writing spine wt and arrow ( minus head) weight on all my woodies, just in front of the feathers, for a while now. No more guessing.

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ChuckC

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Madison, Wisconsin.   Public land hunter
James Calamaris

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Reply with quote  #2 
Chuck, I believe you are correct. The carbon arrow was developed for the compound bow with adjustable rest that could be adjusted to accommodate the arrow spine over a wider spine range so manufacturers tolerance does not have to be that close. I have found that carbon spine will vary from one side of the shaft to the other.
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Jim Calamaris 
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Deno

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Reply with quote  #3 
Chuck
Glad to hear the building is over.   More fun tinkering.

I mark all my woodies minus heads also.

Deno

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United Bowhunters of New Jersey
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Howard Hill Wesley Special 70#
Howard Hill Big 5  65#
Jerry Hill Stalker Deluxe  60#
Jerry Hill Wildcat ll 50#


 

Northern New Jersey
steelflight

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Reply with quote  #4 
Interesting. And here I thought carbons were dead on.
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Old3Toe

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Reply with quote  #5 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckc
Many of you know this already. I am one of those that...know it / forget it / know it / forget it on a regular basis.



Yeah well, birds-of-a-feather and all... half the time I feel like TAS is the best way to help me remember what I’ve forgot about archery. Or, find out that someone else does it too and I’m not the only strange duck in the pond.

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Hebrews 11:1

Jet Wolverine 69@28, Kramer Autumn 62@27, Jet Leopard 63@28, Howard Hill Wesley Special 57@27, Jet Warthog 69@28. Two Tracks Echo 60@27.

Deno

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Reply with quote  #6 
ducks.jpg 
You're not alone!!!!

  [smile]
Deno


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United Bowhunters of New Jersey
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Howard Hill Wesley Special 70#
Howard Hill Big 5  65#
Jerry Hill Stalker Deluxe  60#
Jerry Hill Wildcat ll 50#


 

Northern New Jersey
Bisch

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Reply with quote  #7 
The 55/75 is a .400 spine shaft. Some shafts are very consistent from shaft to shaft, dz to dz. Others are horrible and have nearly no quality control.

Bisch

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Primal Tech longbow 50#@29”
Primal Tech recurve 50#@29”
Sarrels Blueridge longbow 50#@29”
Sarrels Bobcatt TD recurve 50#@29.5"
Rob Green selfbow 47#@29”
Lonnie Dye composite 48#@29”

I hail from about 4hrs southwest of Tim King! [biggrin]
Tom M

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Reply with quote  #8 
Years ago one of our club members, a rocket scientist, built a spine tester that does carbons, woods, and aluminum. First thing we found out, the carbons have weak and strong sides like woods. And we also saw the variation in spines between brands and even within a one leading manufacturer we always trusted.   I am old fashion but aluminums didn’t give us these type headache. just wish Aluminums were as durable as the carbons at least for me and my errand shooting. 
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Sun City, Az. by way of San Diego, Ca. Bear TD's Wes Wallace Royal LB, ILF risers and various limbs, Vintage Works 1962 Kodiak reproduction made to my specs

I hunt public land.
Tradslinger

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Reply with quote  #9 
for some of us, forgetting stuff is a regular thing. I don't use if for a month or two and here we go again. it is sad that the carbons can be like that, they have some wonderful features that I like as well. A couple of years ago, okay maybe six or seven years ago, I gave away around fifty or more cedar shafts. Years ago I had made a spine tester and had each one tested and marked. After some rather trying health issues, I didn't think that I would ever be able to shoot again and gave away a lot of stuff. Well, I am shooting again and hunting again just with a lot lighter poundage. I liked the lure of the wood but also liked the consistency of the aluminum. the problem with the aluminum was that once bent, a royal pain to straighten again if ever. The XX75s seemed to be a lot sturdier and I liked them. Now on a fixed income like a lot of you, it kills me what they get for shafts of any kind now. I still prefer to make my own arrows and I am not above repurposing the fletching off of bad arrows. it is what it is. But on the lighter side, really glad that you are a free man again to tinkeer with what you want to instead of what you are forced to, makes a difference LOL.
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stickandstring

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Reply with quote  #10 
I bought the arrow analyzer from Bear Paw. That tool is the bomb, so accurate and spot on. 
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Arrow Hunter

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Reply with quote  #11 
I just switched to carbons a few months ago. Even bought a Weston saw. I did notice some weak/stiff variation when bare shaft tuning. At first I attributed to inconsistencies in my form. But then I numbered the shafts and noticed the variations were consistent for each shaft. I worked it out but was surprised that the carbons varied. I guess I should get a spine tester and start rotating nocks, some things never change. I really like the durability of the carbons. I would have trashed a few aluminum arrows by now but they are definitely easier to find with a metal detector. I also found that using a calculator to determine the same relative dynamic spine between two different spined shafts is not accurate. I also learned (for me) that the most economical, least frustrating, and least expensive is to be stiff at 20 yards on a chest size target then start loading up the front until I’m in my spot. Then Broadhead and fletch and recalibrate my brain.
fdp

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Reply with quote  #12 
Were you measuring over a 26" span, or a 28" span? Carbons and aluminums (and you may be aware) are measured over a 28" span. Wood is measured over a 26" span.

To convert the carbon/aluminum spine deflection to be comparable to wood spine you multiply the carbon spine by .825.

For instance, a carbon arrow with a .400 spine deflection. >400X.825 = .330, that is the wood (26" span equivalent) which would be 78.78 (say 71lbs.) in wood spine.
timking

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Reply with quote  #13 
ditto what fps said about length.... I have a bear paw analyzer also, and as s&s said, it’s pretty awesome
whenever I check spine they are amazing close....course I pretty much only shoot one brand.!

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Dallas, Texas
62" #55 Fox High Sierra 
62" #58 Black Widow MA
64" #56 A&H ACS 
Widowmaker 350 Carbon shafts
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fdp

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Reply with quote  #14 
  That's interesting Arrow Hunter. I prefer to be weak. that way all I have to do is build out the sight window 1/16" at a time. I can keep my arrows the length that I want them to be that way and usually use the head weight I want to as well.

  Wood, carbon, or aluminum, I do 'em all the same way.
chuckc

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Reply with quote  #15 
Fdp..in reality. As long as i measured all the same, it doesn't matter what i did.

I compared two or more items that, according to labels should be the same but were not. The 55-75 shafts may not have been 80 on your scale, at 28", using 2.25 # or whatever correct weight, but neither was it 55. As i see it, it is all relative.. numbers get us in the ballpark, fine tuning gets us closer. When i put it on my scale a good flyer says 63# ( or whatver) when using 145 grain heads and 68# when using 200 grains up front. If the next shaft i put on there doesn't register that i might have issues.

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ChuckC

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I did too !

Madison, Wisconsin.   Public land hunter
Comanche1

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Reply with quote  #16 
And that is why I like aluminum. No tinkering, no turning...just put them together and choot em.
silverarrow

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Reply with quote  #17 
Wow, I just learned something new, thanks!
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Dryad/ACS Orion 53#
Great Northern Fireball JK 54#
Northern Mist American TD 51#
Howard Hill, The Big Five (Tim Meigs) 57#
Sovereign Sonoran 58#
Browning Wasp 52#
Ryan Gill Osage Hunter (self bow) 52#
stickandstring

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Reply with quote  #18 
fdp, Ive never changed messed with a sight window. A whole new adventure awaits me.[confused][biggrin]
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Arrow Hunter

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Reply with quote  #19 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fdp
  That's interesting Arrow Hunter. I prefer to be weak. that way all I have to do is build out the sight window 1/16" at a time. I can keep my arrows the length that I want them to be that way and usually use the head weight I want to as well.

  Wood, carbon, or aluminum, I do 'em all the same way.


Thanks for that. I’ve done that with my recurves cut past center. I just recently started shooting longbows. Just may have to experiment a little.
Fallhunt

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Reply with quote  #20 

Contemplating forgetting, remembering, forgetting, remembering, etc., I know that I did a lot of shooting wood arrows over 50 years ago.  However, I have thoroughly completely forgotten what it was like to shoot wood arrows.  Therefore, I am now the same as one who has never experienced shooting wood arrows.  Sometime in the future I will purchase ready to shoot wood arrows in order to expand my horizons by “again” learning what it is like to shoot wood arrows.

Would it be a mistake for any reason for one to purchase wood arrows from Howard Hill Archery?  HHA seems to offer wood arrows that I would like.  Yet HHA seems to be seldom (if at all) mentioned when recommendations are being provided for good sources of wood arrows ???

I gave carbon arrows a fair trial.  I exclusively shot carbon arrows for three years.  I remain impressed by the toughness and durability of carbon arrows.  There is nothing really wrong with carbon arrows.  I decided that it was more difficult (not impossible) to get heavy enough plus fat enough carbon arrows to suit me, particularly when aluminum arrows already tend to be inherently fatter, heavier, and slicker (easier extraction from targets).

My time with carbon arrows was enlightening.  I shot carbon arrows during a time when I was still obsessed and fixated on all sorts of measurements and tuning that now seem irrelevant to me for my needs.  I was initially appalled to discover that brand new expensive top of the line carbon arrows from a renowned arrow supplier brand name were awfully inconsistent as received directly from the supplier compared to aluminum arrows.  The consistency of their straightness was awful.  The consistency of their diameter along the arrows length was awful.  The consistency of their weight balance point along their length was awful.  Etc.  Yet carbon arrows were increasing ballyhooed as God’s gift to archery.  Many of the same archery expert gurus that previously had been emphasizing that arrow consistency was so crucial now claimed that this was no longer required for the carbon “wonder” arrows for various reasons.  Some even pointed out the wood arrows had been fine forever with such inconsistencies.

All of this caused me to realize that I had been frequently blaming some usage acquired inconsistencies in my aluminum arrows for a disappointing shooting session.  My measuring and tuning allowed me to blame arrows rather than me.  I try to ignore all the money I wasted by throwing away perfectly good aluminum arrows.  Aluminum arrows now last longer and are tougher than ever now that I have the right mental attitude.  I now know that an aluminum arrow has to be VERY easily visibly wonky before it MIGHT be the reason of my inaccuracy.  My quiver is full of aluminum arrows that are clearly wonky in my arrow spinner even though they do not appear wonky to my eyes.  They still fly fine when I do my part correctly.


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Southern Illinois
HHA Legend Stick Longbows 45#, 50# & 53#
HHA Tembo Longbows 30#, 40# & 45#
Bear Montana Longbows 30#, 40#, & 50#
Lemonwood Self-Bow Longbow 30#
Ben Pearson Pony Longbow/Semi-Recurve 30# (Purchased New Summer 1966)
Ben Pearson Super Jet Recurve (All Fiberglass) 45# (New Jan. 1970)
Bear Super Kodiak Recurve 55#

PROUDLY an Irredeemable Deplorable

fdp

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Reply with quote  #21 
 Chuck, I get what you're saying, and not trying to wrankle anybody.

 An arrow can't possibly have a spine rating of 55-75. Not unless you are calculating for increase, or decrease in the overall length of the shaft. So they couldn't read 55lbs. unless maybe measured over a span that took in to account the full length of the arrow. The deflection rating at any other measurement either longer, or shorter than the useable length would HAVE to be a compromise measurement.
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