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Sparkitoff

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Reply with quote  #1 
I am going to assemble some arrows from commercial shafts. My bow is 38.5# at my DL and is a D-style longbow. I have "Traditional" Gold TIp 500 Spine. These are 32" and 8.6 gpi. (275.2 total). With the nock and 4" feathers it comes to 294.4.  At the moment I am intending to use a 125 grain tip leaving me at 419.4 grains total. So, that leaves the insert. I as going for a 500 grain +/- a few total arrow weight. Where do I get the 80.6 grains that are missing from?

Do I use a 90 or 100 grain brass insert? Do I use an aluminum or stainless steel insert and add a threaded weight adapter?  Washers? Something inside the shaft?

I have build arrows for other types of bows but I just cut to length, glued on vanes, used aluminum inserts and put whatever tip I wanted, I had never been familiar with total arrow weight, FOC, and other concepts that are extremely relevant for traditional shooting.

Eventually I would like to try more sophisticated arrows, but for now I want to shoot a lot of targets and have the ability to hunt a deer or smaller animal if I want to.

Maybe I'm totally off track and there is a completely different path I should be on. Thanks!
Orion

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Reply with quote  #2 
A 100 grain brass insert is probably the easiest way to do it, though varying the point/adaptor weight can also achieve it.  Don't think there's a 90 grain insert for GTs, but I could be wrong. Regardless, you're unlikely to notice the 20 grain difference. However, you'll be shooting 13 gpp.  That's as pretty heavy arrow and trajectory won't be very flat.    

Are you planning to leave the arrow full length?  If so, they might work.  If you cut them to an inch more than your draw length, say 28 1/2 inches, I think they'll be too stiff.  600s would be a better choice.
Sparkitoff

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Reply with quote  #3 
I was leaving them full-length at 32".  So a 500-grain arrow may be too much for a 38.5# DW?  I should shoot for something less than 13 gpi?
fdp

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Reply with quote  #4 
First, the measurement that you are interested in is grains per pound, as in grains per pound of draw weight of the bow. The "standard" is between 9 and 10 grains per pound, which would put your arrows at around 385grs. total. 

Like Orion said, you can add a 100 grain insert. Ideally, in my mind, what you want to do is come up with an arrow that is the weight that you want, but is dynamically weak. That way all you have to do is build out the side plate to get the dynamic spine in line.
Sparkitoff

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Reply with quote  #5 
Thanks for the clarification regarding gpi and gpp.  I understand it now. Thanks, I can experiment in the right direction now.
Tom M

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Reply with quote  #6 
I believe you can still get 50 grain inserts as well. It what I use to up my tip weight on GT 500’s. My GT’s I have for hunting 500 spine, I used the 50 grain insert plus 25 grains of screw in weights on back end of insert. That combo and my 145 grain BH fly the best from that bow. Never used the washers, my luck I would lose them. 
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Sun City, Az. by way of San Diego, Ca. Bear TD's Wes Wallace Royal LB, ILF risers and various limbs, Vintage Works 1962 Kodiak reproduction made to my specs

I hunt public land.
Sparkitoff

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Reply with quote  #7 
After some of the ideas and advice I decided to experiment some. First, the heavier tips (started at 125 and went 150 and 200) shot incrementally more to the left. I'm RH as is the bow. So, I went to a lighter arrow with just 7.3 gpi and 26". They tuned in better, less nock to one side problem. So, I went back to my original 32" arrow at 8.6 gpi and went down to a 100 grain tip. This solved the nock to one side and the right-left. The arrows appear to fly straight and enter the target straight (and stay that way until they come to rest). So my arrow weight is now 394 grains total.  This seems to tune in with this bow. It is a homemade longbow with a DW of 23#. I guess I was just going way too heavy overall and in the front to get good flight with this light poundage bow. I have a 41# bow that I am going to work with next and I am trying to buy a 45#er if the seller and I come to an agreement. Thanks for the advice, this is interesting and fun!
fdp

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Reply with quote  #8 
Something is amiss, or I am not understanding your description. Arrows shooting to the left for a right handed archer indicate an over spined (arrow too stiff) reaction. Adding heavier weight to the front of the arrow softens the arrow (arrows become weaker) so the arrows should be moving to the right. From your description, it sounds as if you are getting an opposite reaction. If that is the case, you have an alignment/form issue.

Try this, put a vertical line down the center of the target. Shoot the arrows at that vertical line and see where they impact. Now, the catch is, that you have to point the ENTIRE length of the arrow at the line. 

Pay little or -0- attention to the position of the arrow nock in the target (nock position in the target is one of the least reliable indicators of spine that you can use, it is too easily influenced by the target medium). After you shoot the vertical line, report back.
Sparkitoff

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Reply with quote  #9 
Thanks, I'll try that. The arrows were grouping left of center. When I added a heavier tip they stayed there or the group went further left. When I reduced tip weight they group more to the right. As you point out, that is opposite of what I was told to expect. Except it is repeatable. I ran through the exercise more than once and got the same results. I think the next thing to do is try 600's. My 500's are already at full length so cutting them any shorter seems to be counter productive to what I am trying to achieve. I do not claim to have perfect form, however I can get a good, consistent group. Also, I may try this further away. Now I have repeated this at 10, 12 and 15 yards only. I will try the vertical line idea later today. The archery range is closed today so I cannot get any different tips or shafts but I will do the vertical line exercise.  Thanks!
timking

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Reply with quote  #10 

fdp is spot on...perhaps the grouping left is some thing other than spine? 
Form, clutching at release, bow hand movement, not aligning under your eye, all could be factors. Including a ‘false’ weak reading 
I hate to sound like a broken record, and perhaps you’ve already said, but are you bare shooting shafts?


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fdp

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Reply with quote  #11 
I'm thinking that if the outcome is consistently repeated you have a form/alignment issue.  You aren't getting true alignment from the string, through the point of the arrow to the target.  I'm betting you are aiming the point of the arrow with the nock end on the side of your face not aligned with your eye. When you do that, the point is on the target, the string and nock are right of the target. That puts the arrow in motion at an angle as it leaves the bow. And the further you move back the more severe that angle becomes and the further you will miss.

Hard to say for sure since we can't see you shoot, but that's my guess.
Old3Toe

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Reply with quote  #12 
Here’s an alternate scenario to a form issue which you might consider: A “false positive”. Meaning your arrow spine could be so far off that the carbon arrow is giving you some very misleading feedback. Carbons tend to be very tolerant of point weight, but very sensitive to small changes in length. Good luck!
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Jet Wolverine 69@28, Kramer Autumn 62@27, Jet Leopard 63@28, Howard Hill Wesley Special 57@27, Jet Warthog 69@28. Two Tracks Echo 60@27.

Sparkitoff

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Reply with quote  #13 
Thanks for the additional input. I will continue to work on this. I did video myself shooting and put it in slow motion. My form looks textbook, but I honestly cannot tell if the nock if right under my pupil and I am seeing the tip as a point of reference. I am going to check that before tinkering with the arrow further. Then I have arranged for some weaker spine to try and some different tip weights if it comes to that.
rattlesnake

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Reply with quote  #14 
150-175 grn up front of a full length 600gt @40# is what I feel will work for your combo..
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