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Yohon

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Reply with quote  #1 
OK, got a 40@28" Hill Tembo....time to make some Surewoods up for it but here's my question for the guru's. I have 40-45 that is cut to 28" BOP (I draw it pretty close to 28"). I finally got beautiful forgiving arrow flight by putting a 75 gr woody weight and a 160 FP on it, giving me a 235 grain point. I dont want to have to use the woody weights but do shoot the 160 gr glue on VPA. So my question for ya'll.....can I shoot the 40-45 say by making them an inch longer (i dont want to go much longer than 29" arrows) or should I go with 35-40????? 
Sunset Hill "Nate"

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Reply with quote  #2 
First thing I'd do is actually weigh the bow.   Some of Craig's bows aren't the weight listed,  some models shoot a softer spine, and some shoot a stiffer spine.   A 28" arrow bop is actually a 29" shaft...so a 40-45 is already dynamically spined at 35-40 before you start adding the heavy point weights.  

Personally,  I think you're getting a false reading....too weak making it look like it's stiff.   I think you need stiffer spine

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aromakr

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Reply with quote  #3 
I'm going to disagree with Nate on this one. First off a 28"BOP arrow is 28" not actually 29", yes I've heard this argument before and its based on the point taper being 1" long but what if its not 1" long? The AMO standard for arrow length is based on a measurement to the BACK of the point,  If it was meant to be measured to the end of the taper, that is what would be designated. I would start buy double checking the arrow spine. It doesn't sound to me to be way under spined. I do agree that Craigs scale is off a few pounds, but my experience is its not enough to matter. Contrary to what some claim a Hill style bow will shoot a wide range of spines.

Bob

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two4hooking

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Reply with quote  #4 
I agree with Nate but I use his math too.

I'd be ordering 50-55 for that BH weight and use those 40-45's for field point use.

You may be able to get by with a 100 grain head on 40-45 with some nice fat fletch....

I would start with a scaled bow weight at your draw though. 




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Yohon

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Reply with quote  #5 
Weighed it again and it looks spot on to me, maybe 39 lbs. I have 40-45, 45-50 and 50-55. I shoot all 3 spines together and its painfully obvious the 50-55 dont work off the Hill but I shoot them great off my 59 Bear, Whippenstick and even the Titan at about the same bow weights maybe a few pounds heavier. You can hear the 50-55 clack off the Hill riser. The lower spined arrows were OK but not until I added that extra woody weight on the 40-45 did I get great looking arrow flight, to the point that when I 1st shot them and watched em go down range and ya'll probably heard me say........."FINALLY" LOL 
RonG

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Reply with quote  #6 
I probably shouldn't say anything as I have had a lot of problem with arrow spines to match bows.

I have found that re-curves and carbon fiber higher performance bows have a tendency to require a higher spine
than a Self-bow or a lot of longbows, even though they are the same or similar poundage the higher the speed that the bow slings that arrow requires a higher spine than
a slow bow as I call them.

Now before everyone jumps all over me and tells me that I don't know what I am talking about, you may be correct, I may not know what I am talking about,
but this is what I have observed with my bows.

I believe with that bow you need to drop to a 35 - 40 spine.
If you could borrow one arrow from someone who may have that spine just to try it would save you a lot of frustration.

If you find a correct spined arrow please let us know what it is, this would help me anyway on my theory.

Like I said I probably shouldn't say anything as these guys above me are experts........Just a thought!
thumper

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Reply with quote  #7 
I'm pulling 50#@27" on most my ASLs, and I shoot a 52-55# arrow, 28" long with a 160gr point. 50-60# all shoot acceptable to me.

If you're in doubt, cut the feathers off and send one down range. That will tell the tale for sure.
OrionII

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Reply with quote  #8 
I think the 40-45# should work with the 160 grain heads, but they obviously don't.  Perhaps something in your shooting style contributes to needing a lower spine.  It might work to lengthen the arrow an inch, but that may not be enough.  Going to 35-40 is the only other recourse.

One other possibility.  If you're shooting a dacron string, going to a low stretch string would probably work.  Reduce hand shock and increase arrow speed as well.

   
thumper

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Reply with quote  #9 
Is your brace height unusually high? Like over 7"?

A too-tight nock can cause a lot of headaches too. If you suspect it, sand one down so it fits the string with near zero tension, and then test.

Just thinking out loud.
Paul Webber

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Reply with quote  #10 
Hi guys, I don’t post much but come here often to read/learn. Recently went through the same thing having acquired a Tembo and now a Legend Stick in the last year. My Tembo is marked #44@27” (I draw 27”... just barely). On my little digital scale it says it’s really #46@27”. And the Legend Stick is a pound or so more. Also, the Legend Stick appears to not be as center cut as the Tembo. Not sure if that matters. Both bows still wear the stock Dacron strings they came with.

What I’ve found and with the help of everyone here, is that shooting arrows in the same spine group as my draw weight (45-50), cut at 29” from valley of the nock and then point taper, fly absolutely amazing out of both bows with 125gr field tips. So good in fact that I get unsolicited compliments about it from my recurve/carbon arrow buddies. Finished arrows end up right at 28 1/4” BOP.

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HHA Cheetah 66” #45@27”
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Paul Webber

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Reply with quote  #11 
I would also mention that for me personally it took time to learn how to shoot an ASL type bow the way it wants to be shot (more dynamic as opposed to a static approach with ‘curvier’ bow designs). After a while the bows performance really starts to come alive to where now I really don’t notice much if any difference between speed and trajectory of my Hill bows vs r/d or recurve bows.

If this is your first ASL it may take sending a few arrows down range every single day for a good 3 months or so, before you’ll be able to really settle into the optimum arrow recipe for you and your bow. At least that was my experience. Had to overcome my own operator error so to speak. But, maybe that’s just me. Everybody’s different. Hopefully some of my nonsense is helpful.

Thanks to everyone here and good luck with your new bow!

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HHA Cheetah 66” #45@27”
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Kelly

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Reply with quote  #12 
A given arrow going thru paradox bends throughout its entire length! Included in that length is a point, a shaft and a nock. In the case of a wood arrow the shaft part is longer in order for a nock and point to be mounted to the shaft. So the total length of that shaft needs to be accounted for.

I’m curious, what happens when just using the 160 grain point?

Based upon what you are telling us those 40-45 spited shafts have an effective spine of 25-30#. With just a 160 grain point your effective spine is 30-35#. Something is not correct here in your case. You should not be needing lower spine.

One other possibility is you are not drawing what you think you are when just concentrating on shooting. Even 27” draw can make a huge difference. IMHO, using 28” as ground zero one inch less increases spine more than one inch more decreases spine. So in your case if you are really drawing 27” with that bow weighing 39# as you measured it really is 36-37# so that could explain why you need more point weight.

Your setup is very similar to mine. I use 160 grains points and my arrows are 27.75” bop, with spines being 45-54#. I draw 27” and my longbows are 40-45#@28” so 37-42#. All of the aforementioned arrows/spines shoot real well out of said bows, which are Schulz, Sunset Hill and Pronghorns. These same arrows fly real well out of 35# 3 pc TD longbow with recurve handle. Most of my bows have Fastflight plus strings on them but same arrows work with B-50 too. Actually the best flying are the 50-54# spines.

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Sunset Hill "Nate"

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Reply with quote  #13 
I smile every time I hear that the taper on a wood shaft isn't included as part of total length for spine because it's inside the head and not flexing....but when using aluminum arrows with an inch of insert or carbon arrows with inserts or outserts it's the same result, yet that part of the arrow with the insert or outsert is figured into total arrow length for spine calcs and it's not flexing either.
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Yohon

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Reply with quote  #14 
Thanks guys much appreciated!!!

I shoot a clicker and I measured the draw on an arrow at the front of the riser at a whisker over 27 3/4" and that's where the 39 lbs comes from when I check it. Im shooting a high tech string with Bohning classic nocks that are not tight at all........
chuckc

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Reply with quote  #15 
The amount of center cut to the bow, or the diameter of the shafts, definately will change things up.
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I did too !

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sempertodd

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Reply with quote  #16 
Nate hit it on the head, lol.  I don't do calculators for final say, maybe get in ballpark with aluminum or carbon.  Bare shaft is only true test, and yes, any wood in the point is still "working" wood.
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aromakr

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Reply with quote  #17 
Nate:   Please tell me why the standard would be measured to B.O.P (Back of point) if they meant you measure to the end of taper?

Bob

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Sunset Hill "Nate"

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Reply with quote  #18 
Bob,  I don't know.  All I know, is that spine is measured at 26" centers, but dictated as a standard 28" bop which is different for wood arrows as it is for fiberglass, aluminum or carbon arrows. 

I do know that a target arrow point whether used for Oly type archery or with compounds,  the shoulder of the point is only about 1/8" - 1/4" past the end of the arrow shaft with most tips.  The same basic measurement as the shoulder of a standard field point past the end of the wood arrow shaft taper.  So for practical purposes, and I believe this was the case in older days when target archers used short target tips,  they pulled the arrow to the tip (or if it would've been a field point being used, it would've been to the point shoulder).  So this measurement of using the entire field point / shaft taper comes into play as a total arrow length.  The old target archers using a clicker pulled the arrow until the clicker fell off the tip of the arrow...so they were figuring the entire arrow into their tuning and spine calcs.  Why wouldn't it be the same with wood arrows?  Why would wood arrows be treated any differently?  It's really all a dynamic spine thing anyway,  as target archers pull the arrow with a short tip into the sight window anyway, stiffening the dyamic spine and trad archers leave an inch of shaft sticking out past the bow plus almost an inch in the taper....which really weakens the dynamic spine.

I don't know.  This is just the way it was explained to me a long time ago by an old time archer and for my arrow spines out of my bows,  it works.

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ManuForti

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Reply with quote  #19 
Really interesting topic and discussion. I’m out of my depth on technical knowledge here, so can only speak from my observations of personal experience. I’ve had success (I.e., terrific arrow flight) with the formula articulated by Nate. I hesitate to call it a formula as such, and instead I just generally shoot “stiff” arrows by conventional wisdom. For example, I’ve found that out of my 53#@26” ASL, 60/64 amo arrows cut to 26” bop (approx 27” total length) shoot perfectly. Speaking conventionally, that would be a 70/74 dynamic spine, seemingly way too stiff. By Nate’s formula, that would be 65/69 dynamic spine (assuming 125 grain heads, which I shoot), also supposedly “stiff.” Same thing for a Schulz 67@26 Trophy Hunter. That bow loves 70/74 amo cut 25.5-26” bop (wood, or course).

I can’t say whether this applies globally or not, but here are my 4 takeaways from my experience: (1) ASLs as a general matter are far more forgiving of spine than I am capable of shooting (as much as 20# spine range from a well-made ASL); (2) generally speaking, a “stiff” arrow shoots far better than a “weak” arrow out of an ASL (and can always be “softened” up if absolutely needed with heavier points); (3) the closer the bop arrow length is to my actual draw length (or even shorter) the better; (4) the better my form, the wider range of spine I can shoot with minimal to no ill effect.

For my ASLs, 10-15 pounds spine over the draw weight is usually right on the money. I have no idea why. More importantly, Bob knows more about arrows than I ever will.
Kelly

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Reply with quote  #20 
The spine testers and method of determining spine was developed long before AMO(1967), many, many decades.

A shaft is a shaft, the total length of that shaft be it aluminum, fiberglass, carbon or wood is needed to be accounted for. Only difference between those medium, one is solid and rest are hollow.

It’s been my experience over the past 5+ decades of being a Fletcher that a little more spine is way better than a little less!

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>>>>============> Enjoy the flight of an arrow amongst Mother Nature's Glory! Once one opens the mind to the plausible, the unbelievable becomes possible! >>>>============>
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jhk1

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Reply with quote  #21 
I've got a Kramer-built HHA Tembo that's 39#@28", and 43#@30" (I draw 30"). It's a heavily backset bow (over 2" of backset). I shoot old cedar woodies that spine at 50# and are 30" BOP, with 125gr field points and three 5" parabolic feathers. Good arrow flight with these.

Based on this, if I were shooting 28" BOP woodies out of a 43#@28" Hill bow, I'd probably start with 40-45 spine shafts with 125gr points. Since you said your bow scales 39# (I assume at 28"), and your draw length is close to 28" (I'm guessing it's probably closer to 27" in actual shooting conditions), your draw weight is probably about 37#@27". If so, I think RonG's recommendation of trying 35-40 spine 28"BOP arrows is a good place to start.

Good luck.
jhk1

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Reply with quote  #22 
Also, as a previous poster mentioned, the string can make a difference. I find that in my 48#-52#@30" ASLs, switching between B50/B55 dacron and low-stretch type strings can make about one spine group (about 5# heavier spine with the low-stretch string) difference.
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