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Terry Harris

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Reply with quote  #1 
Folks, I’m sure we all hear of someone that someone else thinks is cheating.  Well, I am no different.  There is an individual I know that goes to many, many events around the country, I have had many tell me, this person cheats.
Let me say that I personally have never seen nor said this individual cheats, but have heard it more times that I care to remember.
This individual has won at several of these events, including an IBO World Championship.  This individual has also won at my event, the Howard Hill Classic.
Again, let me say that I have never seen this person cheat.
NOW, with all this said, this individual has admitted to a well respected individual in traditional archery circles, that they have at times “FUDGED” on some scores, and of course added, DOESN’T EVERYONE!?
Folks, in my world, FUDGED, is another word for CHEATED!!
Now, when did this take place, what or how many events  and times did this take place, WHO KNOWS!!!  I’m sure this individual didn’t FUDGE to give themselves a lower score, but only to raise their score to place or even win.
I don't know the answers on how we can really stop cheating altogether, but I have always thought if a person has to cheat for a piece of wood or belt buckle, they certainly must have some sort of inferiority complex.
Let me finish by saying I won’t mention this individual’s name, but they, as well as many others, know who they are.
Hopefully, this person will be watched a little closer now.

Terry Harris
Bisch

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Reply with quote  #2 
I’ve seen a few guys through the years that I think “fudge”. And I’ve seen a few that I think downright cheat. There is no way to stop it other than to catch them outright. In my circle, I am the scorekeeper, everyone just hands me their scorecard when we make a group up. If I see someone try to fudge, I’ll call them on it, and we will have the group make a decision as to how the arrow scores. If this person that you allude to did indeed say that about “fudging”, he isn’t even fudging; he is outright cheating because he knows he is getting points he doesn’t deserve!!!!!

And no, everyone does not do it!!!!!!!

Bisch

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Primal Tech longbow 50#@29”
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I hail from about 4hrs southwest of Tim King! [biggrin]
chuckc

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Reply with quote  #3 
I am not much on the competition. But to me, you either do it right or you do it wrong. Whatever you call it, it is wrong.
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ChuckC

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I did too !

Madison, Wisconsin.   Public land hunter
JR Belk

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Reply with quote  #4 
There's a lot of cheating going on lately. It is much more frequent than it was years ago. One guy cheated early this year and got picked up by Bear as a shooter immediately after. Blows my mind.
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timking

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Reply with quote  #5 
Speaking of “fudgeing, it’s Tax Day!

sorry, couldn’t resist

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Clovis6

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Reply with quote  #6 
Quote:
Originally Posted by timking
Speaking of “fudgeing, it’s Tax Day!

sorry, couldn’t resist


I think most folks qualify for the extension to July 15. Seems like all states have done the same. Good thing, my business records are back in the townhouse in VA and I am quarantined at our place in PA. 

Reference cheating, even a point or two makes a huge difference for guys at the top in competitions.  I shoot a lot of 3D tournaments with compound guys and while I get frustrated how slowly they score, I do appreciate that the top 3 positions in their class are often determined by the number of X's they get. As long as they follow some version of what Bisch described, they can stay clean.


But now that you've brought up fudge, I think I'll ask Brynnen to make some.... One of the few benefits of being quarantined is that she seems to be baking every day to keep her mind off the Covid-19 thing.  

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Northern Mist Sprague Longbow, 66", #52
Bodnik Mohawk Chief Longbow, 62", #50
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Doylestown, PA / Reston, VA
Selden Slider

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Reply with quote  #7 
First let me say that I don't compete.  I don't even keep score.  I hate cheaters because it's unfair to those who are honestly trying to win.  I've seen cheats score their hits higher and even move 3D targets to suit them.  Cheats come in all flavors.  There's the low scorer who cheats to look better and there's the ones who cheat because they need to win.  To them winning means more than their dignity.  There's an old adage that says winners never cheat and cheaters never win.  I wish that was true.  Frank
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eddie c

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Reply with quote  #8 
When I was younger, getting a"trophy" meant something to me. As I got older and helped a couple of widows remove stuff from their homes that their husbands accumulated, some were trophies that were just thrown in the trash, I look at it differently.
The friends I have I didn't get from winning a trophy. If I carry a score card it's because the club holding the event required it or my friends and I are having a group competition amongst ourselves.
I don't measure a good friend by the plaque on the wall.

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Sam

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Reply with quote  #9 
Cheating happens. Unfortunately, it is just a part of life. Most shooters like the idea of being in contention, but it means nothing unless it is done fairly. Fortunately, most people are honest. Many of the people I shoot with do not even turn in a scorecard. They are simply shooting for fun. There are things that can be done to cut down on cheating. Mostly, it comes down to paying attention to the scores as they are written down. One needs to be very careful about calling out a cheater, but when it is proven, that person should be banned. A cheater is just another form of thief.
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Sam McMichael

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silverarrow

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Reply with quote  #10 
I have certainly witnessed a score keeper fudging before, but hey there is no need to lower mine. Haha! On another note, I’d let Bisch hold my score card any day. You know he doesn’t cheat. There’s no way a man can get so pissed off by missing a shot, and writing down a higher score.
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Orion

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Reply with quote  #11 
Many years ago, when I was still competitive, a new shooter moved into the area and started posting scores at local shoots that were the highest ever seen.  I decided to see if he really was that good.  He didn't look that good on the practice range.  He always shot and scored alone.  I asked to shoot with him at one tournament.  We kept our own scores, but unbeknownst to him, I also kept track of his on my card. I later checked the score he turned in.  It was about 25 points higher than actual, as i remember.  That was the difference between about 15th place and first place. I confronted him and also told him I would be reporting what he did to the president of the club to which he belonged.  He never showed up at another shoot.

About the same era, there was a fingers compound shooter (most compound shooters had already converted to releases by that time) who had a reputation for cheating.  He would always come to shoots late on a Sunday and shoot by himself. In those days, scores were posted as they were turned in so he had the benefit of seeing the high score in his class.  Not many shooters in his class, but he always managed to come in 5-10 points above the highest posted score.  This was in the day when we were still shooting broadheads through silhouette cardboard targets. The club pres decided to set a trap for him.  When the shooter turned up near the end of the day, another club member placed all new, unshot targets on the course.  Then immediately after this fella shot, and before anyone else shot, the targets were collected.  Thus, there was only one hole per target, (I believe one was also a complete miss.) which the club could use to determine his real score.  It was substantially below the score he turned in.  The club banned him from our shoots and several surrounding clubs did the same.

Unfortunately, this was about the time trad archery was seeing a resurgence, and this fella switched to trad and started doing the same thing at those shoots.  Fortunately, he moved to a neighboring state and became their problem. 


Clydebow

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Reply with quote  #12 
My wife and I started keeping score behind someones back (a friend) that we shoot with every year, and found out this person was padding their score at the events that didn't have double scoring.

The first year Cloverdale went to a Sunday shoot off, the guy with the high score in men's recurve didn't know it until they called his name to get on the line. He only hit two targets out of ten.

That's also when the guy that would always win Cloverdale every year didn't even show up because he found out there would be a shoot off. This is the same guy that Pappy said would have to have a club member score him if he came back to the Tennessee Classic. 

This is also the same guy that turned in a perfect score at the TAS World at Farmland a few years ago in men's recurve before Darren implemented groups and double scoring.  He then had to shoot on Sunday with the top four shooters and missed seven targets . But because of his previous perfect score, he won first place. When he was presented his buckle, all the other shooters turned their backs to him. Him and his son would never shoot with anyone, always alone and together. A LOT of people knew about him, and after that TAS shoot, he has not shown up at any shoots for the last three years. 

I'm thinking some shooters that do get to that top level, maybe being sponsored by, or picked up to shoot for major bow companies, might feel like they have to keep performing no matter what it takes. The same pressure for some of the hunters that make videos, and appear on TV in hunting shows. Over the years some have been disgraced after it's been found they've done things like killing a buck in one state, and then tagging it in their home state. Anyone remember Noel Feather?

My wife and I compete a lot every year. Makes us try to improve, it's a lot of fun, and a great time camping and seeing all the people we have shot with for years. Meeting new people and making new friends is also a good time. We just shoot our best and don't worry about the small stuff.
Fallhunt

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Reply with quote  #13 

When I go to 3D shoots, I write “no compete” across the score card.  I then have fun walking through the beautiful outdoor course while shooting the lifelike targets without keeping score.  I initially just threw the cards away without turning them in when I finished, but I was told that this somehow interfered with the record keeping or knowing that everyone was done (something like that, I no longer remember clearly).  So, cheaters do not affect my fun at all.  I don’t compete.

However, that said, I believe that cheaters only cheat themselves.  How can one possibly have any pride or satisfaction from winning by cheating?  I just cannot understand how anyone could derive any gratification or fulfillment from a win while knowing they cheated.  Perhaps because my dog is not in the fight, I have no real concern about cheaters.  In my opinion, they are much more hurting themselves than anyone else.  I feel sorry for them for being so pathetic that they feel the need to fudge/cheat.  They seem to missing the whole point of what they are trying to accomplish.  Any non-wretched individuals would rather lose fairly than win by cheating.


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HHA Legend Stick Longbows 45#, 50# & 53#
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Ben Pearson Super Jet Recurve (All Fiberglass) 45# (New Jan. 1970)
Bear Super Kodiak Recurve 55#

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Clovis6

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Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clydebow

...My wife and I compete a lot every year. Makes us try to improve, it's a lot of fun, and a great time camping and seeing all the people we have shot with for years. Meeting new people and making new friends is also a good time. We just shoot our best and don't worry about the small stuff.


You nailed it.  Hope we get to shoot with you guys out at Farmland again this year.

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Shooting right now (Sep 2020): 
Northern Mist Sprague Longbow, 66", #52
Bodnik Mohawk Chief Longbow, 62", #50
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Doylestown, PA / Reston, VA
Deno

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Reply with quote  #15 
Bob

What time is the drive through Fudge Pickup ?


Deno

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Howard Hill Wesley Special 70#
Howard Hill Big 5  65#
Jerry Hill Stalker Deluxe  60#
Jerry Hill Wildcat ll 50#


 

Northern New Jersey
Huntschool

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Reply with quote  #16 
I have a similar story to the one Orion wrote.  Back in the late 80's or so we had a great little archery shop and indoor range  down here in deep Southern Illinois.  It was one of those family affair places.  Lots of fun to shoot and good friends.  

Well, a bunch of us wanted them to set up a 3D course and hold some shoots so they did.  We all had a ball to say the least.  As the shoots grew more and more folks attended and the place used IBO rules for classes.  I was shooting a wheel bow back then and yea, a big over draw.  The bow was shooting hotter then a fire cracker and I shot fingers.

There were not a lot of fingers compound shooters around so we all knew each other pretty well and how each other shot.  This created some really good lighthearted competition between us chasing nocks etc.  One of three or four of us would win at each shoot.  Suddenly this new name showed up and he was beating us by 10 or so points each time.  We all got to talking about him and realized he came late on Sunday and shot by himself or with his girlfriend.  

After much discussion with the owners of the range it was decided that no one would shoot by themselves but must have another competitor shoot with them and score.

Well long story shorter.....  he did this twice with this range and never even came within 10 points of our lowest scores.  He got the idea and I dont remember him showing up again.

On another note....  Final "shoot downs".  I dont know if I like them or not.  If scoring on the course is legit then the winner is the winner and thats that.  This shoot down stuff is like a mulligan to me.  I cant disagree that it can be a spectacle for onlookers but it should be free from the total competition in my mind.  Added money if you will.......

Just my thoughts.   

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Clydebow

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Reply with quote  #17 
Robert, We hope so too, but if not, it might be in August.
Tom M

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Reply with quote  #18 
I agree, those that cheat are cheating themselves but like I mentioned on another site it’s the parent who fudges their kids scores so they can win is doing that kid a disservice. IMO worst than fudging for themselves. I have seen this many times over the years. Kid can’t hit the target on a practice bale but turns in an almost perfect score. Of course if the kid can get away with it now he/she will start to believe that is how life is. Sad.
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Sun City, Az. by way of San Diego, Ca. Bear TD's Wes Wallace Royal LB, ILF risers and various limbs, Vintage Works 1962 Kodiak reproduction made to my specs

I hunt public land.
Steve Graf

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Reply with quote  #19 
Seems like an easy fix.  If you want to turn in your score, it must be kept by someone else.
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Reply with quote  #20 
When we have shoots at our club, we keep each others scores, no worries then.
steelflight

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Reply with quote  #21 
Sarcasm here. ) I don't under the big deal here. I shot a 15 at my first 3d shoot and still got 2nd place. 30 targets total.Ok I was the second of two trad shooters that took part. Ole Kent was the other .he schooled me . fun times . point is learn to shoot better and padding will seem silly.
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Hud

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Reply with quote  #22 
There are ways to discourage cheating. 1. use dual score keepers, if the two scores are different at the end, that person is DQ.  2. Top ten shooters competing for a trophy, must enter an elimination event after the first, second or third round to reach the final, where the top three would be in a shoot-off. 3. Stop offering trophies. 4. Give everyone a Certificate for shooting.
tradlongbow

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Reply with quote  #23 
Terry,

TAS put together a committee with some of the best competitive trad shooters in the sport to create a system that will eliminate the opportunity to turn in fictitious scoring by grouping the top 12 shooters in the championship round, starting the championship round at “0” score, and the top 3 shooters compete in a 6 target shoot off in front of piers and friends.

TAS encourages shooters that want to shoot just for “FUN” to come out and enjoy the weekend.
• Shooters wanting to shoot for “FUN” will have there scorecards stamped “NOT COMPETING”.



Competitive shooters
• Two scorekeepers in the group (2 scorecards)

• 40 Target Qualifying Round- Will be shot with at least one outsider in the group.

• The 12 shooters from each class advance to the championship round.

• Championship round scoring starts at “0”.

• 20/6 Target Championship Round- Shooters are grouped by score and style. Top 3 shooters shoot-off in a stadium setting in front of their piers and fans.


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TRADITIONAL BOWHUNTER WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP 
Farmland Conservation Club, Winchester, Indiana 

PUBLIC LAND HUNTER
John Schulz Straight Shooting and Bowhunting Graduate
Email: traditionalarcherysociety@yahoo.com

sempertodd

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Reply with quote  #24 
Darn it, you guys are on to me.  Okay, I will not keep score anymore, Oh wait never have.
I don't get it, "fudge" or cheat to get name on plaque or trophy, hell go buy one and claim your the world king I don't care.
I shoot to challenge MY Hunting ability (which is always challenged, Darren we need a special class), and more importantly to share
great time with like minded people.

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