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Pfranchise

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Reply with quote  #1 
Last night a buddy and I were experimenting with shooting split finger, we both shoot 3 under normally. There was a considerable noise difference between the two styles, split being noticeably quieter for both of us. We are both shooting Belcher Union Jacks, mine is 55@28 and his is 71@28. Haven’t tested our recurves yet but I’m thinking the results will be similar. Can anyone shed some light on why split finger is quieter?
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Patrick
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Belcher Union Jack 66” #55
Toelke Chinook 58” #55
Toelke Super Static 64” #54
Howard Hill Sirocco 68” #50
1952 Bear Grizzly Static Recurve 62” #49
Kelly

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Reply with quote  #2 
I can’t answer as to why that is but agree with you that split is definitely quieter, at least it is in my case.
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Draven

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Reply with quote  #3 
I think it was Greg from 3D Archery 101 who did a sound test and actually the DB level was the same in both situations with a tuned rig.

PS Here is his video


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NotDylan

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Reply with quote  #4 
I believe it has to do with tiller. Most bows are tillered for split finger.
eddie c

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Reply with quote  #5 
I shoot 3 under, mainly because it was the way I was taught. I noticed that there is a noise difference between when I have a good release vs when I pluck the string.
I've questioned a couple of different bowyer's about the split vs 3 under tiller issue. Every response I got from them was basically the same. Doesn't matter if you tune your bow/arrow combination correctly.

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OrionII

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Reply with quote  #6 
Going to three under bends the limbs unequally, taking the limbs out of tiller when drawn. When the limbs come back to rest at the end of the shot, they don't arrive there at the same time, causing extra vibration and noise.  This can be ameliorated somewhat by raising the nock point and getting the limbs to bend a bit more evenly, or, if you have an ILF bow, to adjust the limbs to even or even negative tiller.  Of course, you can also have a one-piece bow made with even tiller.  Regardless, most folks just raise the nock point a little and put up with the extra noise.
Pfranchise

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Reply with quote  #7 
Jim tillers the Union Jack even.
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Patrick
Michigan

Belcher Union Jack 66” #55
Toelke Chinook 58” #55
Toelke Super Static 64” #54
Howard Hill Sirocco 68” #50
1952 Bear Grizzly Static Recurve 62” #49
OrionII

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Reply with quote  #8 
Video is interesting.  Not sure I know how to read the decibel plots, but it seemed like the initial line or two for 3-under was longer, i.e. louder.  Regardless, they were pretty close.  I agree, though that there definitely is a tonal difference in the sound.  The 3-under seems higher pitched to me and maybe that's why it seems louder to my ear.  

Of course, other things can affect the results as well.  He did indicate the bows were fairly low poundage.  I expect the noise would be greater with higher poundage bows.  Arrow weight wasn't mentioned.  There, too, the noise would be greater for lighter arrows than heavier arrows.  Repeating these tests isolating one of these variables at a time, bow weight, arrow weight, etc. should help differentiate and perhaps corroborate this test.

Regarding the feather noise, I've always felt that the critter hears the bow going off before it hears the arrow coming, and this test certainly supports that view, at least at the fairly close range of 20 yards.  Maybe they wouldn't hear the bow go off at 30 or 40 yards, or the sound would be so muted at that range that it wouldn't attract their attention.  Then the feather noise might come into play.  Regardless, by the time they hear the feathers, probably too late to do much about it.

Anyway, in my experience, unalert deer almost never react to the bow or arrow noise.  Alert deer almost always do.      
Steve Graf

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Reply with quote  #9 
I have found that 3 under is usually at least a bit noisier.  I think the reason has to do with where the Draw Force Line ends up relative to the nock of the arrow at full draw.

The draw force line is the imaginary line which represents where the draw force is applied between the point on the bow grip where pressure is applied, and the drawing elbow.

It usually passes through the string somewhere around the middle finger.

With a split finger draw, this line will pass just below the nock.  With a 3 under draw, it will pass a good inch or more below the arrow.  Upon release, the pinch point on the string (where the DFL passed through it) shifts up to the arrow nock.  The greater the distance between these two points at full draw, the longer this transition takes, and the more vibration it causes.
Draven

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Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Graf

With a split finger draw, this line will pass just below the nock.  With a 3 under draw, it will pass a good inch or more below the arrow.  Upon release, the pinch point on the string (where the DFL passed through it) shifts up to the arrow nock.  The greater the distance between these two points at full draw, the longer this transition takes, and the more vibration it causes.


It makes sense.
When I shoot split the heaviest load is on middle finger (actually right before the release it is 99% loaded), when I shoot 3 under the heaviest load is on index finger using same scenario. I am doing this way due to the days when the thumb was the single finger carrying the load and it was the closest finger below the arrow nock. Less drum on the string happens when there are fewer fingers loaded right before releasing.

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OrionII

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Reply with quote  #11 
In discussions about three under vs split, the topic of arrow shelf distance above the center of the bow seldom comes up, yet that has at least as great an effect, IMO, for it dictates where on the string the fingers will be placed.  I've noted before, a good number of builders place the arrow shelf 2 inches above the center of the bow, creating equal limb length.  Just as many place it about 1 1/4-inch above the center of the bow, creating uneven limb lengths (top limb is longer).

Usually different tillers are associated with each.  My bows with the arrow shelves 2 inches above center are usually tilled even.  Those with the arrow shelves 1 1/4-inch above center are usually tillered positive. Regardless, both tiller and arrow shelf distance above the center of the bow influence finger placement on the string, regardless of whether it's split or 3 under,  and have at least as great an effect on noise IMO. 
mparker762

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Reply with quote  #12 
unfortunately there are a number of problems with the claims in that video - his decible graph as presented is pretty low resolution for getting a good reading of the peaks, and he really needs to compare the area under the curves as well as the peak decible values.
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namvet6971

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Reply with quote  #13 
When I ordered my bows, from Brian @ McBroom Custom Bows. He asks if you shoot split or 3 under, for proper tillering.
Dale Rohrbeck

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Reply with quote  #14 
Since switching to 3 under, and more recently 2 under I have found that moving my nocking point to7/8 above center has quieted my bows. This seems drastically high for a nock point, but It is the sweet spot for me.
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